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In this episode of all about business, James Reed speaks with Francesca Gamble, Founder of GTN Consultancy, about building relevant, human-centred brands in an age shaped by AI, technology, and cultural change.
Francesca shares her career journey from leading global agencies and luxury brands – including Dolce & Gabbana, Stella McCartney, and the London 2012 Olympics – to launching her own consultancy. She reflects on the realities of entrepreneurship, the decision to build a business without hype or industry awards, and why many PR and marketing agencies fail when ego outweighs real commercial impact.
The conversation explores brand partnerships, celebrity marketing, and equity-based collaborations as powerful growth strategies for challenger brands. Francesca explains why even great products fail without strong marketing strategy, how cultural relevance influences consumer behaviour, and why measurable results matter more than awards or recognition.
Looking ahead, Francesca offers a bold perspective on the future of PR, advertising, and marketing in an AI-driven world. As automation accelerates and content becomes harder to trust, she argues that authenticity, human connection, and credibility will become the ultimate competitive advantages in business.
A candid conversation about building brands, staying relevant, and creating a business that lasts in a rapidly changing world.
04:38 starting a PR business
10:08 the role of PR in modern marketing
17:54 celebrity partnerships and brand collaborations
32:28 the importance of flexibility and client relationships
42:24 the reality of entrepreneurship
51:03 successful celebrity brand partnerships
58:00 the future of PR and female founders
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
Follow Franscesa Gamble on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francescagamble/
Find out more about GTN Consultancy here: https://gtnconsultancy.co/
[00:00:30] today on all about business. I'm really delighted to welcome Francesca Gamble. Uh, Francesca is the CEO and founder of not one, but two companies. Um, the first is called 29 London and it's a PR. Um, promotions and communications company that specializes in the drinks and hospitality business. And the second is that GTN consultancy, um, which is Francesca to tell us all about, but brings brands together with celebrities and influencers and exciting [00:01:00] new ways.
[00:01:00] So this is all very current and topical. Francesca. Yeah. And thanks very much for coming in to talk to me. Your background was in marketing, the engine group? Yeah. M and c Saatchi. Yeah. But, but just moved. Oh, just moved. I think it's, it needs to be fixated. Sorry. I think it just dropped down quite a lot. It might be here.
[00:01:17] Yeah. Let me tighten you Righty. Tightly. That's right. It's lefty. Lucy
[00:01:26] got there. Awesome. Perfect. Great. So do I need to say, how much of that do I need to say again? Not all of it. Uh, not all of it. No, just your, from your background. Yeah. So your background, early career, Francesca was spent in some of the premium marketing companies in the country, m and c Saatchi, the engine group, but then you started on your own.
[00:01:45] Yeah. Um. Just tell us that story to begin with and welcome. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. It's absolute privilege to be here. Um, how did it happen? Sometimes I don't really know. You know, you wake up one day and these things all just come to you. But I basically had got to a [00:02:00] point where I, uh, was working in the big agency life doing what was back then, sort of that typical sort of like 16 hour days running and working for other people and doing brand activations and doing some incredible work.
[00:02:13] You know, I launched the 2012 Olympics was a very integral part of various teams, BMW Sky. So, um, I got to see the world a lot. It's a really exciting stuff. Very exciting. Yeah. Huge projects. I traveled the world with sort of Prince Harry and his work with Center Barley, uh, with the brand Royal Salute Whiskey.
[00:02:31] Um, so I did a huge amount and, and got to be part, uh, of a lot from very young age really. Um, but then, um, I did a short stint at m and c Saatchi working with Dodge. Sorry. Sorry. I can see the, we're letting you down here, Francesca. I know. It's like slowly, I dunno what's happening. I dunno. Yeah, it's in there.
[00:02:50] Do you need to go in there? Well, yeah. Hold on. Why you, why you push the chair? Is that gonna work? There is some muscle behind it. [00:03:00] Do do Pilates? Yeah. Sorry, our gets to work out. Sorry about this. Tell me, this one Never has a problem. No, we've never had this problem. But yeah, it's just causing, it's also very slow, so I'm like, am I, is it me?
[00:03:15] Who's going mad? Can see it. The slow going away from your face. Oh gosh. Well, do you know what? It's probably me. I actually, since I've woken up this morning, I've had a bad day with tech. Have you? It's just like this, everything just hasn't worked for, for me today. Well, it's gonna go right from now.
[00:03:36] It's fine. Let's, I'll hold it. Get the show back on the road. So you were, you were saying about, you know, here we go, working. Does that work? Yeah. With m and CI think that looks like it will. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. I'll try and just hide these. So you're working. So then I was, um, went to MC Saatchi, did a small stint there working, um, with Doce Gabbana on their [00:04:00] global campaigns and Stella McCartney.
[00:04:02] So huge global sort of PR experience. But, um, for me there was always something more when, you know, when you're speaking to these brands, you are only really getting a small slither of what they're actually doing and. I guess there was always an itch. Um, and I went to, there's so many greats, um, talks these days, but back then we're talking sort of 15 years ago, um, they were really just getting started and there's a great communications group called Wacko Women in Communications in London, and I went to one of their panel talks and there was an amazing lady from Chanel.
[00:04:35] And that's basically why I went, you know, I was very impressionable, desperate to understand what Chanel was doing with their marketing. And actually there was another, another lady on the panel from a really small company that I'd never really heard of. Um, and her story is what I heard and it resonated with me so well and really opened my mind up to, I guess, the world of brands that are outside the ones we all know and love.
[00:04:56] There's a whole world out there, and obviously in today's market [00:05:00] with entrepreneurship being so integral, there's more brands than ever. And I guess that really opened my mind to the scope of. Well actually how much I could achieve outside of the agencies I was on when I was working with some of the biggest brands in the world.
[00:05:12] There's also a whole plethora of other brands out there that could do with my help. So at 26, 27, I kind of jumped ship and found myself in my bedroom. It's a pretty brave thing to do. Yeah. I don't think I, um, I tend not to overthink things. I kind of very, um, instinctual in kind of what I, I do. I didn't take any clients with me.
[00:05:34] Um, and I pretty much had me, myself and I, and I'd find myself in the pub actually on many occasion, hoping that a client would maybe land on my lap. But I did work hard and I do have a very hard work ethic. So, yeah, I think from there things just snowballed. Um, so I just would like to sort of backtrack a little bit here.
[00:05:54] 'cause you said a couple of things that I, I'd like to understand more. You said there was a woman who, who gave a talk that she told a story [00:06:00] that you really resonated with. What was the story or what was the particular point there about it? The, the point for me, it wasn't around perfection. It wasn't this idea.
[00:06:08] When you work for big agencies and, and, uh, being in that environment, it's almost like you have blinkers on, you almost have no idea that there's a whole world out there that exists outside of those four walls, which is very, you know, it's very cocooned. You're very like, looked after. Right. You know? Um, it's very, they heaven in house, restaurants, bars, it's privilege, a position to be in.
[00:06:31] You know, you could spend half your morning just playing darts and they call that creativity, you know, I can't do that in my job on a, it's not something, you know, I don't like darts either. No, I hate her. Cool. I only do things I can win at. So no dance is off the table as is bowling. So I think that that's what obviously those big creative agencies and those big agencies from media and the media industries have always thrived in is those environments that they do more than just obviously do the work.
[00:06:56] I'm somebody, um. That does need more than that. I think [00:07:00] listening to her story and the successes she had had with her agency and talking about brands that I'd never heard of, and it was like, this is hugely inspiring to me because I was very pigeonholed at that time. So she was an entrepreneur who started her own agency and you saw Yeah.
[00:07:15] That was something you could possibly do too. Yes. It's 'cause it's very, you are in a privileged position, so you know, you know in an agency world when you're looking at a client, you know the numbers are huge on how much that client's worth. Okay. When you work for yourself and you set up your own agency, you can't use those same numbers.
[00:07:31] And there's no doubt about it. I would be going in with clients with these huge numbers. No, but you don't need huge numbers if you're doing it from your bedroom. No, but it's just the way you programmed. It's very, I think a very privileged position. And obviously when you start earning your own paycheck, it, yeah, the rules are very different.
[00:07:46] So then you said you set up in your own bedroom, you went to the pub, hoping to bump into a client. Who was your first client and how did you get going? So I got going through word of mouth really. Um, I started working with Per [00:08:00] Ricard. Um, that's a pretty big brand. Yeah. Per ricard's, not a bad place to start.
[00:08:05] No, no, they were really, how did you get that? Um, I was, when I worked in the big agencies, I was pretty much the lead person, um, because I really understood luxury and the agencies were very much more mass consumer lifestyle. So I kind of pigeonholed myself in that area and managed to maintain sort of their global accounts, um, and global PR toolkits and sort of really understanding that side of it.
[00:08:27] So that was a good footing for me. Um, so that was the sort of niche you started out in? It was, yeah. Luxury. Yeah. And ultimately what does it mean understand luxury? Because people like luxury, but what does it mean understanding luxury? Well, for me, what's keen to understanding it, it's storytelling at, at its best.
[00:08:43] I always feel it's, you know, you've got to sell a product. I mean, in this case say a whiskey, um, completely differently. So for instance, we had a perfumist that came on board, um, from Paris who was our kind of ambassador. So it's the first time you're kind of [00:09:00] dissecting the liquid. And I think luxury has a real, uh, job to do with selling a product for the value it does, whether it's whiskey or a handbag or whatever that product is.
[00:09:10] They've got to go into the nuances of why it's worth X and what does that mean and how you connect to the customer as a result. And, um, for me that's always been interesting. Um, I. And that's something that definitely drew me to that area. And I started to then get a few more clients in that kind of luxury space.
[00:09:29] Um, but actually always, despite having done lifestyle clients from fashion all the way through to like, over the last couple of years we've worked on the Eurostar. So very diverse. Um, we really do now focus. What'd you do for the Eurostar? Was it We launched their, their previous Olympic campaign last year.
[00:09:45] Oh, for Paris? Yeah, for Paris. Oh, right. So, um, yeah, I mean we, because you are in PR you have to diversify a little bit. I mean, every PR company knows that. Um, but I've made a bold move this year. We're sticking [00:10:00] to drinks and hospitality. Right, because I mean, they, they're they're sort of sectors that are under some pressure as well, aren't they?
[00:10:06] Yes. I mean, we keep hearing about. The hospitality sector being hit by taxes and rates, and then the drink sector is being challenged by people drinking less. So what are you gonna do about this? Drinking less. I know. What am I gonna do? How's that? Oh yeah. And don't forget, how does PR get involved in that?
[00:10:22] It is difficult, I think, um, some of our drinks clients have also been taxed with, uh, especially in the wine industry with the cost of the glass where the bottle sits and Right. The, the cost of the liquid. So the government is attacking it from all corners. I think the thing is that where we set sit in the, in the PR industry is the kind of really fun, fluffy stuff to be quite frank.
[00:10:41] You know, we are there, we don't do corporate things. We're not trying to do corporate, a corporate job and change the face of, of what's going on. We essentially spend any money that they've still got left right in, uh, in the sort of partner brand partnerships area. So, um, we've got clients looking at doing like the traders live experience [00:11:00] partnership at the moment.
[00:11:00] We've just done the Devil Wears Prada. Um, we are doing sort of, so my wife Nicola, yeah, she's got a drinks business. Oh, great. It's called Beeble and they make honey spirits, honey rum, honey whiskey. Oh, I love that. And it's doing really quite well. Why would she choose you? I mean, what would, what would, how would you benefit her business?
[00:11:19] Well, hopefully the, the value added to this is an opportunity to win customer. Why, why would she choose you? This is great because we are not just solely focused on what we'd call traditional PR anymore, which is important depending on her, her, her sort of sales channels. And that's the first thing we'd need to look at.
[00:11:35] Some of our clients are still quite traditional in selling to retailers, right. And some are direct to consumer. So sale, the, the sort of communication plan is completely different. And I think for us, um, PR is really important in today's market, despite how much it has changed the rise of AI and where people, what are people using to search for products is putting more emphasis on really good quality journalism.
[00:11:58] Again. So that's [00:12:00] earned media, so that means someone like me that you're paying the pr. Our job is to get editorial for free. It's not a paid advert. So that's why it's so important now because people are going to chat, GDP and going, right, give me the best, what are the top 10 best gins in the UK right now?
[00:12:17] Oh, and then chat. GPT goes and searches the media. Well, that's where they're getting all their quality sources from. Now Google predominantly hits SEO. So if a brand and you are firing up SEO, your likelihood you'll come up. My sister had actually a really good example. She wanted to go, she's pregnant, desperate to go to a wellness bar and relax.
[00:12:35] So she put on into Google, put it in. Anyway, this one came up. Best one, best one in Essex, like, you know. Um, off they went. Well, her and her friend went in and I think, you know, they're turning a few heads thinking, what is this place? It's not quite looking like the pictures, you know. Then they went into the pool area and there was a bit of a commotion, and out comes a mouse from underneath one of the sun beds, right?
[00:12:56] Suddenly it was like. Wow. I mean, going back [00:13:00] to how they searched for it was all through Google. So they sat there over lunch and thought, why don't we go on chat DP and GTP and go and have a look. Yeah. What does that come up with? So basically, um, that came up with a completely different search result.
[00:13:13] They come up with different ones each time you do it. Yeah. So then from there, they then then booked a new one and they visited it over Christmas and it was exactly what it said and the reference points that it was pulling. But how are you through pr? But tell, how do you know that then as a customer?
[00:13:27] You, you are kind of traveling blind a bit. Well, of course, but that's what marketing is, isn't it? It's the, it's the will of who's got the most money usually to get up to, to the top of the Google rankings. Yeah. That's what it's all about. And that's why it becomes a black hole, especially for like your wife, for smaller brands to compete.
[00:13:43] It is so hard, which is why you're best not to throw your money down that black hole. And you're best to come to someone like me who understands PR and quality editorial and then we work together to distinguish where that branch is up. This is interesting. So you might agree with this opinion. So the last person who sat in that chair was called Pete [00:14:00] Russell.
[00:14:00] Yeah. And he said to me that in five to 10 years time, marketing and advertising will be dead. Yeah. He said finished. And his thesis was that. Instead of business being based on getting people's attention. Yeah. It would all move to their intention. So I want to go to a spa, or I want to buy a honey whiskey.
[00:14:18] Yeah. And the way the search is, bring up that information. Yes. Um, is materially different. That's his thesis. What do you think about that? Do you think that's possible? I mean, it seemed pretty, pretty bold statement to me, but it's a bold statement. Is that how it's gonna work? Well. It, it's not going to be dead.
[00:14:35] I, I mean, that's, that's obscene. Uh, it's never gonna be dead. Um, as long as there's humans here and there's something to sell to, there's not, it's not going to be dead. It's just going to evolve into something different ultimately. And, um, I think the way, look, the, the biggest problem we've got is trust right now.
[00:14:53] So how are we going to gain trust of the customer? I think that's brand's biggest, um, [00:15:00] hurdle over the next few years is demonstrating trust. And ultimately that's gonna be earned through brands, understanding community and really getting under the skin. So your wife's the great example. She's got a small business.
[00:15:11] She's in the best place than most large brands to, to build that trust and to get that community going and engaged with her, um, than she's, well, you think that's all entrepreneurs in a better place than bigger business? Yeah, absolutely. Because why? Because she can build community much more fluidly than a big brand.
[00:15:27] Right? Because, um, because it comes from a place of authenticity, you know? Bacardi rum going in is a lot harder, which is why they spend more on big experiential activity. 'cause they're constantly trying to find new ways. Yes. Because they, they don't have the founder story, you know, they don't, they don't know how to connect to the customer.
[00:15:45] They can't use all those foundational points that your wife has are so important. Um, I think the way we consume, obviously the information is going to change and I would like to think PR is about to get a new fresh take on its [00:16:00] role within marketing because I think quality is going to be fo a big focus more than quantity.
[00:16:06] And at the moment, you know, quality of the sort of output of the PR Yeah. Output. Yeah. And where, what people are looking for. And obviously, like you say, how are, how is it gonna come up for them? Where, where are they looking? Because, you know, the money is on, the marketers are all talking about substack being, you know.
[00:16:22] A real driver, long form content. So how are brands gonna get involved in that? What does that look like? You know, um, where, where's the role of Instagram gonna take, um, to take brands and are people still gonna be on there in the next few years and engaged and tiktoks big? Um, but I'm not on TikTok because I don't feel it's the right platform for me.
[00:16:42] For you personally or for your brands? For me personally. Yeah. Um, what it does for the business. Yeah, maybe, but I feel that we work in a people industry, so for me, my time and team's time is best spent getting in front of people. And that's what I'm super passionate about, [00:17:00] is trying to get in front of people, picking up phones.
[00:17:02] You know, how many conversations I've had this year already? People are going, oh, you're picking up an old school phone? Yeah. Yeah. No, I like phones. I think they're very. You know, important business tools and they get left behind a bit and people use email way too much, I think, or, or having to do zooms. I don't wanna have to look at my face every time.
[00:17:19] Um, I want to speak to somebody. Yeah. No, the phone has a lot to Yeah. Recommend it. I agree. Yeah. So this, so this thinking on your part, I think it must have informed your new business. Yes. Yes. So tell me about that. Yeah, it's, it's quite exciting. I didn't intentionally want two businesses, and it's certainly, um, a struggle to straddle two at the moment.
[00:17:42] Um, but the second business is a big priority for me. Um, I think it's kind of, um, it's, we are really focused on partnerships. So with the intersection with brands and celebrity agents, really, you know, we do these deals between brands and then the celebrities to kind of [00:18:00] like. Encourage that area to grow more.
[00:18:02] I think the world of influencers has really taken over somewhat. And there is an argument now, like in terms of the, uh, kickback brands are seeing from influencers in the way that's changing in their real currency. Celebrities have always been there. They just have not necessarily, they're not necessarily the most inviting to go to, you know, there's a lot of ring fencing around it.
[00:18:23] You can't just call up Brad Pitt's agent. Well, you, I can call up Brad Pitt's agent 'cause I know them. Right? That's, but anyone who wants to talk to Brad Pitt, here's your, here's your contact. Um, but that's my, but influences are much more accessible. You know, brands feel that they can probably go and target the big influencers and just DM them on social media and that there's a close proximity to that.
[00:18:44] Um. But the reality is, you know, as long as we have film, you know, as long as we have TVs, as long as we have music, all these key things in the art that are so important, we will continue to have celebrities. They're just not going to die. Um, it's not something that is going to [00:19:00] particularly move from where it was and where it, when I first started almost 20 years ago, hasn't particularly evolved.
[00:19:05] So, um, for me it's really passionate, you know, I'm very passionate about working with celebrities and getting brands to work with them more and understand. So what have you done? Just so listeners have a sense of what we're talking about here, a couple of examples. Yeah, of course. So, um, we have, we recently worked with Jason Statham, um, out in the Middle East in Abu Dhabi with the Grand Prix.
[00:19:27] So we signed him for a brand out there and he goes and does big appearance fees. What was the brand? Um, it was for the tourist board right out there, the Abu Dhabi tourist Board. Right. So that was exciting as a first. I'm sorry, that was me. So, so I'll say that again. You can go from the Abu Dbi. So, so what was the brand?
[00:19:46] It was the Abbey Dbi Tourist Board. Um, so that was a really big signing. Um, and since then he's become an integral part of, um, of the, uh, of that area trying to raise their profile around culture and [00:20:00] entertainment, which is what the sector's trying to do out there at the moment. So our job is to make sure that, kind of, that, that not only does that commercial partnership happen, but then it's important for us to build that relationship ongoing, uh, with the brand.
[00:20:13] So how did that come about? How, how, how was he linked with Abu Dhabi particularly? Was that your idea or was that something already existed or, well, brands tend to come to us with a idea in mind. Um, of who they want to work with, um, and what they want to achieve from it. Um, from our position, we try and strategize that.
[00:20:33] So we need to understand aims and objectives and, and what that person is going to do. Um, and in this instance, when it becomes an appearance, um, it's really important for us to kind of understand what the boundaries are to that because someone like Jason is so big, um, how overly exposed he's gonna be and working with his team, his agents and lawyers about actually what that looks like.
[00:20:56] So it's, it seems like such a small thing when you go on the Daily Mail and [00:21:00] you slide down and you see an event taking place like Formula One for instance, and you see the celebrities there. You don't think much more of that. Um, no. You just sort of absorb it. You just go, oh, that's great. Oh, he looks great.
[00:21:10] She looks great. Oh, this is very exciting. But there's people like myself behind that, um, that are trying to orchestrate every part of that. So, you know. It's very important that we get the right pictures. You know, it's like making a cake, really trying to get those celebrity shots. Um, every part has to be right.
[00:21:28] And ultimately it comes down to relationships that you hold with those celebrities. You know, if they're not having a good time, you know you're gonna be able to tell on the pictures. And ultimately those photos then go
[00:21:42] same guy every day. Is that? I think so, yeah. It's a big mo. I've heard him before.
[00:21:54] Yeah. Think you, so if they're not having a, yeah, so if these celebrities aren't having a good time, that obviously [00:22:00] shows. Um, they're looking grumpy in the photos. Isn't in the photos. Yeah. And there's a huge amount of management to that. There's a huge amount of safety aspects that we have to take into consideration as well.
[00:22:09] We were working with high profile talent, um, but ultimately, so you've got another example of this recently that you've done? Yeah, so we've done quite a lot here in the uk. So we worked with, we worked with Laura Whitmore on various projects and Ashley Roberts, we've recently signed her for one of our, um, rose brands that we launched.
[00:22:27] So, you know, again, she has to do, um, what's the brand? So it's called Cas del Diablo. Right. Um, so it's quite a popular brand and they've launched their own rose wine and then Castero del Diablo Yeah. Means something of the devil, isn't it? What's the castero? Yeah. It's all about the devil. Is that what I'm saying?
[00:22:43] Is that, so why the, so why does she, what, what, what's the sort of, there's a, there's a question here in my mind is why, well, why the brand wants to be associated with her in particular, but also why she wants to, is prepared to put her. Yeah. Own brand, you know, up alongside someone [00:23:00] else's. Yeah. What's the sort of negotiation here?
[00:23:02] Well, first of all, we have to kind of match the brand values and say something like a, a rose wine that's meant to be all about fun and excitement. And it was, um, more about the angel rather than the devil. Okay. Right. Um, have you got someone in mind for the other end? Yeah. I'm not telling you who. Oh yeah.
[00:23:22] Very good. But we're just working on their global ambassador role at the moment. All right. Okay. Um, so that will be interesting to see what happens there over the next few weeks, but we have to marry brand values ultimately, so there's a few ways we can do it. Look, we're talking about big brands at the moment that have money to spend on talent and ultimately, um, so brands are looking for celebrities.
[00:23:41] Yes. Brands look for celebrities. But not, is this new or have they always done this Well, they've always done this, haven't they? If you think back in advertising terms, they've always done it. Yeah, I think so. But this is new because of the new media that it couldn't give it sort of, it's always happened, but again, I don't think, uh, brands necessarily always think about going to celebrities.
[00:23:59] I think [00:24:00] influences often take precedent and, you know, I think a celebrity offers much more, um, than an influencer. And I think because, because their, their media value is so high, you know, they don't just sit online. They're not just, and I think the way that world is moving at the moment, putting all your eggs in one basket, if you've only got X amount of budget to spend all in one space, I don't think is necessarily smart in reaching the customer now.
[00:24:27] So I think when you partner with a celebrity, the likelihood is they're on TV or you've watched them on Netflix or something, and then you may follow them on social media. And there's a lot of large like actors, so like Daniel Craig, Andrew, Scott, Benedict Cumberbatch, they're not on social media. So we find they're still getting huge deals because it's that there's no, they, brands don't mind that, you know, they, they're looking at their, their worth and their image worth.
[00:24:53] Um, but what we're also finding on, we're working on a randomly a rose wine deal at the moment, which I [00:25:00] can't say who, but with a big, um, uh, musician in America. And this is an equity deal. So I think something that. I am looking at working more on, especially with like small to medium sized businesses. What do you mean an equity deal?
[00:25:15] Well, the idea is, is that we bring celebrities on to a brand, um, depending on the level of the brand and where they're at, but ideally to get them involved in next few perspectives so they'll become shareholders of that brand. Yeah. And famously Jennifer Anderson came on to Smartwater, which sold for like 4 billion, you know?
[00:25:32] Yes. So it's Paul Newman was one of the owners with this, his source, wasn't he? Well, look, I think that the way the world is at the moment, you know, this is happening a lot. I mean, lots of things. Well, well, I think it's a really great place for to be, and that's something that I would really encourage, you know, if you've got a brand like you should really be looking at this.
[00:25:49] And I think that's something that we can, we are kind of the gatekeepers to a lot of these celebrities and talent, not in the uk, but globally. And it's a really viable option, you know, if you want to grow [00:26:00] a celebrity is the best way to do it. And Emma Greed, who's, you know, co-founder of Skims and Good America.
[00:26:08] You know, she uses, that's her superpower. You know, she is, she understands the game because the problem you've got with products is that a lot of entrepreneurs can spend years developing products, right? They believe they've got the best gin in the market, right? And they've got this liquid and then they pop, pop it into a bottle, brand it, and then they expect everybody to get it.
[00:26:30] And the problem you've got is that that really doesn't stand out when you put it against competitors unless you've got marketing attached to it. And that's what is the difference between whether a customer purchases it or not. Ultimately, the marketing is fundamentally the most important thing. And celebrities get the cut through really quickly, um, and get you seen by your target audience.
[00:26:51] And I think Emma has done an incredible job and not many other brands stick their neck out as much as she's done and invest in [00:27:00] celebrities quite like she has done across her brands. So we had the maker of the best gin in here just the other day. Lady Caron, she makes high clear gin and it's very successful in America.
[00:27:10] Amazing. She's got Downton Abbey, I guess as the, uh, as the marketing for that, which is sort of in supports your point. Yeah, well it's good gin and people know where it's come from and people love the royal, that sort of royal, well they're not quite royal, but they're aristocratic. It's that, especially in America though, that that just ticks Exactly.
[00:27:30] Takes huge book. Yeah. That just goes down very well. Downton Abbey was very successful. So that association between something that's Yes. In the media celebrity and a top is working more and more effectively it sounds like, if you get the right combinations. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that your, that's your sort of business focus here.
[00:27:48] Yeah. And, and the second half of our GTN consultancy is we do, uh, brand to brand partnerships as well, so. We bring, say for instance, can't talk about [00:28:00] everything we're working on at the moment, but uh, we bring brands together to hopefully do really incredible sponsorship deals. So we worked on like Eon Next, um, the big energy company.
[00:28:10] We recently did a partnership that they were looking at doing in a new sector. So we brought, they wanted to do gaming 'cause their whole idea was they wanted their customers to turn off their energy for an hour a day, which is obviously a great story for an energy company to say they actually want you to turn the energy off.
[00:28:25] Um, and during that time they wanted to encourage people to play and do something. So we brought on a gaming company called Big Potato, which is sales wise up there as big as sort of Mattels. And they are still a privately owned small business. And that was something very important to me 'cause I'm a real champion of working with those types of companies.
[00:28:44] And, you know, that's been a, a really successful partnership. So that's another way, um, that we work. So this is putting two brands alongside each other. What do you call that? Just a partnership, brand partnerships or a sponsorship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's something. Um, and, [00:29:00] and from the brand's point of view, is that a way of getting into a new market or getting a new audience, or what's the, what's the, yeah, what's the rationale for that?
[00:29:07] Well, it's exactly that. It depends what the, it depends the reasons for going in, right? So for something like, um, eon Next have got 5 million customers and Big Potato is a much smaller business than that. So. The, the alignment there is they're gonna be able to look at sort of shared customer reach and be able to push themselves out to new customers, I'd say is their biggest objective at that point.
[00:29:29] Um, but other things we've worked on, um, so when we worked on, um, the launch of Ware's Prada, one of our clients actually wanted to be able to use those assets in store. So when you shop in Tesco's, um, they were able to then brand all the end of the aisles up with the Devil Wears Prada. And that drove huge amounts of sales.
[00:29:49] So that was huge. Like sales of Tesco of the Devil Wears Prada book or film. Are we talking about This is No, there was selling wine. Oh, okay. And, um, basically [00:30:00] helped increase their sales massively through that association that they had through their sponsorship. Why? Because people like familiarity. They like to see things and go, that's interesting.
[00:30:12] Better to help them sell wine. Well, it's the Devil Wears Prada have the, they launched the live theater show in London. Oh, okay. So that's what, yeah, so, and, and then the film is out this year as well. I've seen. So there's a real, like very topical. So what we are very good at doing is also looking at what's happening in culture.
[00:30:31] Right. You know, and looking at, so people are, who are aware of this, see it somewhere else and yeah. And they're like, well, I actually, I want to go to that or see that. And then the wine can do their bit afterwards. But it's very competitive obviously, as you know, in the retail space. So any partnerships that drive point of purchase and, you know, get customers interested ahead of their competitors.
[00:30:51] Right. Small increments helps these, helps these brands. So in terms of building your business, how, how'd you go about that? You know, it's relatively [00:31:00] new, this new consultancy. I dunno, you dunno. Still figuring out, well that's, that's refreshing. What have you tried so far as well? Um, for me, I've, so I've been doing, I'd say this solidly for just about 10 years now.
[00:31:14] And I'd say I'm very much at this point now where my next 10 years are gonna be looking very different than my previous one. I think the last 10 years have very much, uh, tried and tested lots of things. I think the fact that I'm still here in our industry is, uh, well, is kind of remarkable, I think. Why do you say that?
[00:31:33] Because most agencies die, you know? Right. They can't succeed. Why? Why do they die? I, my personal opinion is a lot of agencies are built on smoke and mirrors. Um, it's very ego. It's very like you can go on LinkedIn, type in all the agencies and you'll see the, the DRL up there of everybody shouting about what awards they won, what things they've won.
[00:31:51] Oh my God. How clients don't really care about awards. No one cares about awards. No, and the problem is once you, once you've won an award, you are already out of date. 'cause you gotta go [00:32:00] win another one. Otherwise, yeah. You're talking about the 2020 award. You won 2025 or 26. Exactly. I mean, but customers don't care that you've won an award.
[00:32:09] No. To know what ideas you've got for that. The only award I really quite like, if I'm being honest, is the great, the, the Taste Awards. A Great Taste Awards. You know when you have a Gold Star on, oh, Nicola's got those. Don't Honey Whis. Oh, there you go. I love a Taste Awards. Although that's, that's a, that's a sort of quality stamp though, isn't Yes, I really like those awards.
[00:32:25] But our industry awards, no, that's not going out and getting something in a black tire thing. No picture taken, put it on LinkedIn. I'm very anti or that sort of stuff. To be honest, I really thought I'd tried. Because I don't like conforming. I didn't want to, uh, I just don't like conforming. I'm not very ego.
[00:32:40] I'm very focused on the work. I'm just getting my head down. And, um, I So you think these agencies that sort of didn't succeed are distracted by this? Oh, ego driven. So it's, I feel like it's so easy to be distracted by it. It's there. And especially if you've just jumped straight from one of those big agencies to set up your own, you know, so easy to do [00:33:00] it, so easy to be distracted because it, it's whatever.
[00:33:03] There are many distractions, aren't it? Yeah. And it's so, so you're a big believer in focus. Huge focus. Yeah. I like, that's why I, that's why I am still here. I think, you know, I'm very, very, I've been very flexible in how we've worked. Uh, very amenable. Um, I don't think I've ever said no. Um, which well, to a customer, yeah.
[00:33:24] I will always bend over backwards. And I think any clients that know me knows that's how we've always operated. But you charge 'em accordingly. Uh, yes. But you don't have to, don't you? Otherwise you lose out. I'm here for the long term. I will still be working when I'm 18. So for me, I'm not here in a, in a mad race.
[00:33:41] Um, but you know, I have felt a certain type of laser focus new, I knew I was coming into this new phase and with the businesses that we've got the next decade. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and I feel like now I'm really putting a lot of my learnings now, [00:34:00] uh, into practice. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying yes to things.
[00:34:04] But how I go about stuff now is definitely been tweaked and refined ba based on where we were. So it is kind of exciting. It's um, you know, we were in a meeting the other week with a client and speaking about potential sponsorship and they put us into the same breath as IMG and you know, the reality is that's exciting for me because we're a small, independently owned company in which we will remain at.
[00:34:28] Um, and we've got big ambitions to where we want to go and the conversations and the people we're in the room with, I'm proud of how I've got us there. And my plan is now to keep building that and maintain a very small senior level team, um, with the right mindset. And that's something, you know, I've learnt, um, as I'm getting older that, so you really wanna keep control of your business and I do make sure it's, yeah, I do.
[00:34:55] But what, that's the work that you want to do. Yeah, I mean if there's, um, with the [00:35:00] GTN sector, we are building a tech product at the moment. Um, that will be a brand and celebrity connector, um, and allow a much more seamless approach to how brands want to work with celebrities. Um, and that's a tech product I'm kind of bootstrapping myself, um, which is really difficult.
[00:35:21] Um, because I don't have endless amounts of money. Any money we've made, I've earned right then, then it's really easy to just spend it all. It just depends. Well, so these AI projects can sort of start becoming quite expensive. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It, it is. I, I've shared that experience. Yeah. And lots of people have already told me like, how much you need to even get this off the ground.
[00:35:40] And I'm just a big believer in, um,
[00:35:47] yeah, lots of people told me how much money these things are to get off the ground, but I'm. I am, I don't know, maybe it's that entrepreneurial part of me and I'm a bit ignorant and stubborn where I just go, I need to do it myself first. Because I figure if you don't do something [00:36:00] yourself and fully understand all of it, you get sidetracked by the money aspect.
[00:36:04] And you know, in theory in today's world, it's not difficult to get money from people to fund projects to raise money. Yeah. And that's not something right now I want to do. I feel like I'd probably lose control too early on. Um, but I think we're onto a good thing, but I'm prepared even though. So you are putting your own money in or Yeah.
[00:36:23] Money that's been generated by the companies or revenue investment. You're not going outside for debt or for equity investment? No. So that means you, you're the still the whole, whole owner then. For now. Yeah. I can see the appeal of that. I mean, that's, well, yeah, I think I'd be, if you could do that, make, make the progress you wanna make in that way, that's the best way to do it, I would've thought.
[00:36:43] Yeah. Well, I'd like to have proof. I'd like to, to, um, you know, proof of concept and at least put my money where my mouth is. If somebody was gonna come in and invest, at least they know who they're investing in and that's half of what investment is about. So. Sure. Yeah. We've got the same problem on side.
[00:36:58] Yeah. That's the first time this has [00:37:00] happened. Maybe it's the cold or something.
[00:37:06] Are you too warm by the way? Yeah, too warm. It's warm. It's quite warm. Yeah. I'm feeling You can turn my heater off. Yeah, if you wanna turn it off. Is that right now?
[00:37:18] Usually it's not really out. I, so I move in a bit. There we go. Adjust a bit, a bit more like that. Yeah. There we. That's good. Yeah. I dunno if that pushes it there.
[00:37:38] We'll have a look at these afterwards and get them still there. There you go. It's probably the slightly rounded desk I've had a good Christmas. Yeah. Want happen to, happened to them? Yeah. Yeah. So, so where was I I was asking about Mm, we kind of wrapped up the kind of tech part. Think [00:38:00] Oh no, I was gonna ask you that.
[00:38:01] What I'd like to ask you, you, you mentioned that this investment that you're making at the moment is in a sort of brand celebrity match. Yeah. I mean, we're in the business of matching people with client companies who wanna hire them. Yeah. But what's a, how does a brand celebrity match work? What, what are you looking for?
[00:38:17] What, how would you put the two together? Well, that will go down. So we are putting the kind of emphasis here on the, the brands to be able to attract the right celebrities in terms of what they're wanting to offer. So it's. In our, in our world, uh, a lot of gifting happens. So brands want celebrities to go to try their new hotel and all these kind of things.
[00:38:38] And often there is no monetary exchange. So, um, that is something that we are now bringing together. So we are not necessarily gonna be looking at different values here. We're gonna be looking at kind of what the brand is looking to add in terms of its, um, offering. Um, and then through that it will attract the right [00:39:00] celebrities and will get notified that this is something that suited for them.
[00:39:05] I mean, I often think that celebrities could do a lot to help new companies. Startups agreed. You know, if they just said, I've just been to this wonderful cafe, or, yeah, had this great, you know, experience in this shop or whatever helped percent. Help the entrepreneurs. I think they should do that more. I'm really behind that.
[00:39:21] It's the sort of superpower they have that I think many of them don't really realize. Well, and you are sort of bringing that out and out a hundred percent because the rea Yeah, because ultimately, you know, you've got talent agents who manage these celebrities a lot of the time and you know, a lots of them not based in the uk.
[00:39:38] Um, unless there is a monetary exchange, they won't necessarily read your email. Right. You know? Now my thoughts on that is that it is shortsighted that there is a journey that some brands should be going on with talent and how that works and making sure that, that there's an authenticity to that. And I think, um, shutting down conversations isn't just something that I'm, [00:40:00] that I would ever do.
[00:40:00] And this is why I think that long term, if we can bring these together and celebrities are on their phone scanning things and they're saying traveling around the world, like you said, and there's a new cafe or a new thing, they should be able to start in a click of a button. Yeah. Have ACCC have access to these kind of things more easily because it's already existing in the influencer world.
[00:40:19] That's the difference right now on the other side of all this wonderful world of possibilities is, is the downside with associating with celebrities is Yeah, sometimes they can go and do some awful thing. The, the Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just can so damage your brand if they're sort of Yeah. Alongside each other.
[00:40:39] Yes. I can think of several examples. I won't name names, no names, but people are, people are, um, unpredictable, should we say that? Yeah. And so how do you deal with that when that happens? When something blows up? Some celebrities done something terrible. Mm. And your precious brand is sort of aligned with them.
[00:40:56] Yeah. Well, crisis, have you had that experience? Crisis comms comes [00:41:00] into play? Yeah. Uh, I mean, I've had some close calls and I can't mention names. Yeah. Okay. Which could have really, uh, could really have been blown out of proportions. Well, that's a risk from the. Company's point of view, of course. And from a contractual perspective, that's all covered off.
[00:41:17] You know, there has to be, that's all very well contractually mean. Well the well contractually there has to be covered off. There has to be a point that there is that, you know, everyone has to kind of safeguard themselves equally. Talent safeguarding themselves around some brands that maybe act out. But, um, in those situations, you know, you've got to just do what any great, especially with your piha on, is be be able to break down what's going on and try and act accordingly.
[00:41:42] Now, I think in today's world it's very difficult to act accordingly 'cause everybody's so scared about being canceled. Um, yeah. Of your brand's associated or if you as a celebrity suddenly find yourself associated with a company that's doing something terrible in some part of the world, that's bad too.
[00:41:58] It is, but some of the, some of the [00:42:00] time stuff isn't that terrible. It's just the fact we forget we're human and humans do make mistakes and they're sometimes, you know. We need to take a step back and look at this and what this actually means. But the problem we've got is social media will blow anything up instantly.
[00:42:12] So the smallest thing could just be out of control if it's not contained. So I think we are living in a very tricky time at the moment where, um, for that intersection for is a bit dicey because I do think a lot of people are scared about being, um, canceled as well as brands being canceled if they don't say the right thing or tow the right line.
[00:42:33] And if they're working with a celebrity that they feel maybe stood out of line slightly, they're quickly to get rid of them. Yes. Uh, so I don't think that used to happen. Um, I think people would end up forgetting it and it'd be like, what did you say? Tomorrow's fish and chip paper. Yeah. Um, it's not the same online.
[00:42:49] That's, there's no forever, isn't it? It's there forever until Trump does something and knocks it all out. Well, no, but if, if you look someone out on Google, it's gonna be there. It's gonna be there. Whatever it was that upset the Well, [00:43:00] um, yeah. You know, we work, we've been working with Tom Hiddleston, the actor at the moment is that.
[00:43:06] You keep giving me your answer. I wanna hear what you're gonna say about Tom Delson. Sorry, this is falling over. Well, I'll get outta the way. Hang on. There was pause. You come back, Tom Middles. Yeah. So you, me watching the night manager. Oh. Obsessed with it. So good. I think it's good. The new series had a few bad reviews.
[00:43:22] I've thought bit. It is good, but it's, I hadn't realized, I, I was thinking, I can't remember the story of the first one then someone pointed out it was 10 years ago. Oh, I've only just watched the first one. I'm really behind. Yeah, yeah, right. I'll go near that. Do you think that's gonna be okay? Yeah, if you just, uh, okay.
[00:43:41] Talk, talk bit maybe. Um, yeah. Alright, so that better. So, um, we have like, we had a situation with a brand we were really looking at working with Tom Hiddleston and, you know. He's so interesting because he used to go out with Taylor Swift quite a long time ago. She's now [00:44:00] engaged, you know, and he's got a child and is moved on.
[00:44:03] Everybody has moved on, right? Right. But when he famously put on an I Love Taylor Swift t-shirt and Dance in the Sea, that has definitely haunted him. You know, and it's hard 'cause the internet doesn't let you forget. And Thomas is amazing, talented actor. He does not need to be associated with that anymore.
[00:44:22] We've all done silly things and it was silly and fun, but the same breath, uh, that is remembered by brands and by thi and people and other, so those associations because of social media, even if it wasn't an awful thing, um, it's still something that can stick with you. And the internet sadly, doesn't let you forget.
[00:44:44] So how do you advise? So, yeah, so if someone's gonna make a statement or something at some point in time. You have to give them quite good advice, don't you? About Yeah, I would, you'd be happy to see that in 15 years from now, but we're human. And when you're just going through that experience, it's, [00:45:00] you can't control everybody.
[00:45:01] Look as much as I'd love to control everyone, but that's not the end of the world, is it? I mean, no. Lots of people love Taylor Swift. I mean, everyone loves Taylor Swift, so not into the world. Yeah. So, so you, you had some interesting views about sort of entrepreneurship mm-hmm. And that the, the sort of idea that entrepreneurs have become fashionable.
[00:45:23] I think so. And you expressed a little concern about that. And just what's your, what's your concern? Well, I think looking across, especially the internet and social media, uh, without a doubt, I think entrepreneurship has had a huge pr, I dunno who prd it. Um, I suspect people like Gary Vay, uh, who's head of, um, you know, various media companies, you know, definitely helped champion this idea of.
[00:45:48] Of, of entrepreneurship, which is great, but I, and you want everybody to feel like they can work for themselves. But I do think there's a, there's a tough reality on that and people who do work for themselves and who are struggling. [00:46:00] You know, fighting against it because not everybody is made to work for themselves.
[00:46:04] It's okay, you know, to work for somebody else. So you think people are, people are sort of setting up who maybe aren't suited to it? Yeah, because it's not just because being an entrepreneur, it is not just about, this is annoying, which is fighting with the microphone is, um, what's that? I don't understand.
[00:46:22] Yeah, take it right up. Put it right back in. There you go. I think it needed to be closer in look. Yeah. Does it need a tool? Maybe. I think maybe it is just, maybe it's just tighter to the table. It'll be alright.
[00:46:44] Had this problem there bit of wood there, isn't there
[00:46:52] safe? I think that's probably, let's see if that Yeah, I mean, yeah, it feels. Stable now. [00:47:00] It's in a bit. It should be. All right. Will. Let's see. Okay, great. And then afterwards we'll bash it in. Yeah. Um, um, should I just jump in into the entrepreneurial part? Yes. Um, my, my view on entrepreneurship is that yes, it has become a rising trend, um, but I don't think everybody needs to be an entrepreneur.
[00:47:22] I think the internet tells you, um, to become one and that we all need to explore and look at this area of working for yourself. But I also think it's okay to not want to do that. And I dunno if the internet really gets behind that narrative. I think the ent, the word entrepreneurship for me and to be an entrepreneur is to really understand, um, risk.
[00:47:47] I think that's really important as what your, um, association with and relationship is with risk, you know? In what way? What do you mean? Well, for me, an entrepreneur is prepared to risk it all for the idea that they've got. [00:48:00] And I don't think many people actually are. I've met too many people who tell me they've got an idea and they're just sort of waiting for a million pounds to come in investment until they can, you know, live their entrepreneurial dream.
[00:48:10] That for me, isn't being an entrepreneur. You know, people who are just living day by day, you know, writing decks to get money in, um, and not necessarily putting their money where their mouth is first. Going out there, doing the work, doing the research, you know. Really putting themselves up against it. So you're a big believer in sort of bootstrapping, starting from the thumb.
[00:48:30] I think that's, for me, adds credibility. If I was gonna work with a brand who had bootstrapped and demonstrated, that's, that for me is exciting. They're people who really understand it. Um, I think being an entrepreneur is somebody that is developing, um, their product, you know, all the time, and they're always constantly looking for ways to, to be better in their own marketplace.
[00:48:53] Um, and they're prepared to be at the forefront of something even before it's been done before. Um, [00:49:00] I actually wouldn't really consider myself an entrepreneur. I think. I have elements of it, but I work, um, in a service industry. I think developing a tech product and seeing this white space that I feel like I have at the moment is maybe moving into more of that space of truly being an entrepreneur.
[00:49:17] Um, but, um, you know, I have, my dad was, is a true entrepreneur. He's his multiple businesses and he's an engineer and developer and has done all sorts of incredible things. And that, that's for me where I would always place entrepreneurship. And I think that we need to reconfigure what this is. I think people have to be happy in their nine to five.
[00:49:38] It's absolutely fine to have a nine to five. It's brilliant. In fact, have the stability, earn the paycheck, you know, do the thing. Jumping this side of the fence is very different. You know, you really have to be okay with not earning money or to, to not have good months and bad months. And to know what your relationship is with money is, is crucial.
[00:49:57] Um, and it just isn't for everybody. [00:50:00] And you have to take the rough with the smooth ultimately. Um, and I feel that we need to get a bit more real about what that is because ultimately you've got amazing companies losing people because they're all desperate to set up on their own when actually stay where you are, speak to the person you're working to, and find out how you can grow within a great space and maybe have a bit of that entrepreneurial feel without the risk it might take.
[00:50:21] So I think that entrepreneurship probably needs to be slightly reevaluated as it, as it moves forward, but really that it's such a big word and people are desperate to be an entrepreneur and what that really means. Yeah, it's sort of, it's more. It's not just a positive, you'll say, you know, there are lots of things that come with it that maybe don't suit certain people.
[00:50:41] Yeah. Because ultimately if you're sitting at home with a family, uh, and you've got children and you've watched enough stuff on the internet to drive you to believe that you've got something about you that could make money, you know, from your kitchen table or something, you know, you're putting a lot on the line and therefore you need to really pressure test what [00:51:00] that means.
[00:51:00] And if you're about to sacrifice a paycheck and what that looks like, it can't be taken lightly. Um, but equally, you know, you, I do believe you can take those risks, but you just needs to be calculated. And I think sometimes the information we get given can often feel like everyone can do it. Yeah. Just, you know, shoot for the moon, throw in your.
[00:51:22] Yeah, throw in the towel and off you go to, to your entrepreneurship journey and you'll, you know, drive a Ferrari in the next next few weeks and live the life of luxury. And that's definitely not the, the complete truth, as I'm sure you know. Yeah. I'm gonna ask you to come and do this. I'm, there's a little pause.
[00:51:39] Sure. Yeah. Um, so what other things do we, so this while he's fixing. Yeah, sure. I was thinking it'd be interesting to sort of dig a bit deeper into the AI and technology part, um, of your new company of C consultancy and sort of what, um, what problem does the platform solve in the [00:52:00] conventional Yeah. World.
[00:52:00] Yeah. And how is it reshaping the sort of, and the sort of, it's interesting with obviously it being a people industry and then. Tech coming in tech. Yeah. I'd be quite interested to know more about that. Yeah. I'll, I'll ask the question. So you, so you are sort of investing in AI to, so yeah, I mean it won't just be ai, it will be, um, yeah, I mean it will be tech as a whole, but obviously AI is important.
[00:52:29] So tech and ai. Yeah. Yeah. What will it sort practically look like, I think would be quite interesting. Yeah, if you can talk about that. Yeah. There per certain bits I probably, I have to be mindful of because ultimately between, I mean ultimately what I am wanting to take it is it eradicates the need for a lot of agents because what we need, what I'm doing it.
[00:52:49] Yeah. Well that's why I have to be careful 'cause at the moment I need them on board. Yeah. Uh, but the reality is agents are unfortunately a massive block for any, anything happening. They just are a nightmare, you [00:53:00] know? Right. Between all of us, they're, they agent, the celebrities. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they can be really bad.
[00:53:06] Uh, you know, so they, so ultimately, when you go directly to celebrities, so you meet them and talk to 'em about stuff, they're just human like we are. Mm. You know, they're like, well, why didn't I know that? I wanna see that. Show me that, Fran, let me have a look. And you're like, well, this is easier. So I'm working with, um, a guy called Tom Hopper, who's an actor.
[00:53:25] He's in the terminal list. He's working with Liam Hemsworth at the moment. And I just called him. I said, look, who's doing your brand partnerships at the moment? And he said, my agent does nothing. I said, well, should we take them on for you? And he was like, absolutely. And then, you know, looking at his looking, he's got 2 million followers on Instagram.
[00:53:42] Like nobody's cashing in on what he's doing. No one's like building it for him. And that's very typical of the industry. And then agents don't do enough. Yeah, but then they kind of ring fence stuff so you can't get in. So this platform, essentially we need the celebrities on there who will [00:54:00] then just speak to the brands and go, this is great.
[00:54:03] And then ultimately where we're gonna build it is that that then becomes, say, you know, Hilton Hotel have worked with Brad Pitt over the last few months 'cause he just wanted to travel the world and stay in the hotels. And then we've got the data that comes back from that, that shows the value of what he's brought.
[00:54:18] And then we can equate it into a financial model. And we can say to Hilton, you should be paying him 10 million because you are getting 20 million back. So 10 million's, quite cheap and therefore you've got a rationale. And then we moved the webs, we moved the tech product into a commercial platform and then, well that's hypothetical.
[00:54:37] Or at the moment there's nothing. The platform is pretty much built, but the commercial side of it is something that has to be a phase two. Once we've won the trust. But it's, um, so what's the question that we need? Because it's, because it's tricky. 'cause I can't say too much without it sounding like you could say, um, AI and technology are, are changing pr.
[00:54:59] So, so what [00:55:00] does, I think the question is what does, what problems does the platform solve for brands that struggle? Um, or what, what, um, it's basically, yeah. Why is the platform being created, I guess? Yeah. Why are you doing it? Yeah. 'cause we want Yeah, yeah. I can do that. Yeah. Well, we basically, very simply, we want brands to have more access to the celebrity world, which they currently can't have.
[00:55:24] Yeah. Then you can dive into what is the problem. So, so you've Yeah. You've, you've said you, I just have to be very mindful of not sounding like I am eradicating their agents. Yeah, no, that one you can talk but behind to sort of Yeah. What the problem is so far. Yeah. So, Francesca, you, you've mentioned that you are investing a lot of your own money and business resources into sort of technology and AI at the moment.
[00:55:46] Yeah. Building a platform. Yeah. What, what's the problem that this platform is seeking to solve? What, what's the service that you really want to deliver that you're not able to without it? I just really want to bring brands much closer to Celebr. That's [00:56:00] for me a key marketing point that is being missed off.
[00:56:03] Um, at the moment a lot of the focus gets put on the influencers, um, and there's just not enough on celebrities. There is tons of platforms out there that brands sign up to where they get instant access to influencers and they could run campaigns through them. There isn't anything like it. With celebrities, and one of the biggest reasons is because our industry in the celebrity world comes heavily down to relationships.
[00:56:25] It's personal relationships between agents, talent brands, or people like myself who sit at the intersection of both brands and talent. So our job is to maintain those relationships with the agencies and the, um, celebrities themselves and to forge these partnerships because ultimately from an organic perspective, when brands want to gift or want, want to entertain, so whether or not it's the F1 inviting celebrities down on a non-paid basis, or invitations to the Brit Awards or the BAFTAs, or maybe your wife's [00:57:00] gin, uh, and people want to support smaller companies, the idea being is that this will be the first platform that actually gives full access to.
[00:57:08] Um, to the celebrities and vice versa. And there will be an interaction there, obviously safeguarded, but the idea is, is that you'll be able to sort of get that transaction over pretty quickly and be able to get the brand in front of those celebrities. So, so there's a much more increased awareness amongst the celebrities that Exactly.
[00:57:26] This is a possibility. Exactly. And I think at the moment it's very difficult for brands to suddenly find the money to say, I want to work with that celebrity. Um, they often think it's gonna be too far out of reach or they dunno the right contacts. There's a lot of barriers to entry with working with celebrities, and we just kind of want to democratize that.
[00:57:46] You know, we want it to be a bit more of an open platform and ultimately we want it to, to result in great commercial deals further along the line and see more celebrities. Now, when we talk about celebrities, I'm talking about, obviously a lot of us think about [00:58:00] a-listers, but in our world there is so many other rising stars that we work with.
[00:58:05] We work with, um, cultural taste makers, people like Yinka Auri, who's the most incredible artist he designed. Uh, he designed so many things, uh, and he's done like the marks and Spencer's shopping bags, for instance, in all the bright colors. Um. People like that will be on our platform. You know, if you, the brand is looking to, you know, work with a dj, those sort of things as well.
[00:58:26] Like for me, I'm very immersed in the creative and the arts industry. Um, there are lots of rising stars in the world of presenting and podcasting who are kind of mini celebrities in their own rights. So for us, there's gonna be a real cross section of where this goes. And these people that we have on our platform do not, uh, I guess associate themselves with being an influencer.
[00:58:49] They want, they either already are a celebrity or they're almost coming into celebrity, um, sort of world themselves. And I think that's really important. You know, the people on the platform will have [00:59:00] media profiles, not just social media. And, and that is the pitch to the companies or the brands that these people have a bigger profile.
[00:59:09] Bigger impact. Is it over the influencer group? Yeah, it's just a different profile. It's just, it's just different, you know, it talk to different customers, is that what you mean? Different customers? Yeah, exactly. And um, and some of them, you know, especially with the rising stars, you know, to have a brand, to be able to grow with somebody is quite exciting when their career is starting out and, you know, we want to be able to give brands and open the sort of the possibilities to that.
[00:59:36] Um, because currently it's not available in the marketplace. When you, when you look around the sort of business landscape, what sort of celebrity brand associations do you think have been particularly successful? I mean, there's, I mean, this feels like there's tons. So I have a industry. Um, an industry newsletter, uh, on Substack.
[00:59:58] Uh, we have about one and a half [01:00:00] thousand brands signed up, um, brand owners, um, where we talk about, it's called fronted, and we talk about all the deals, um, and the faces that are shaping culture. Um, so we go through so many interesting ones. So for this week alone, we've had. Uh, well this week coming up we've had Elton John, who's just signed his first ever, um, drinks deal with a 0% Elton John Sparkling.
[01:00:22] Right. I was hoping it would be zero given Elton's remarkable, uh, story. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, we hope it's zero. That's always so a good thing. You know, we had Alison Hammond recently signed with Specsavers, and in the same breath we had Emma Willis Vision Express. So, you know, the glasses brands are out there, busy, um, busy spending, um, because they have a message to send out to their customers.
[01:00:44] Yeah. And that's the quickest way they're gonna be able to get their reach. Um, I mean, there's so many, obviously. So if people wanna see this and visit you Yeah. They can go to your, um, website. Is it, or it's Instagram? Where would, where would people look at this? Well, we can, we can go, well, we're obviously across all the platforms.
[01:00:59] [01:01:00] I'm trying my best to go across all of them, but we can, you can head on to our website, um, gtn consultancy.co to find Substack on there, the link. Um, my LinkedIn fronted. I also have just started to get into videos. Right. Very good. I know, I'm trying, I'm pushing it here. So we do a weekly newsletter with a roundup of video of me giving the spiel of it.
[01:01:21] Right. So that's what my, uh, LinkedIn. F and that's called fronted. Fronted. Yeah. Yeah. So we're growing that this year. The idea is, you know, more brands who are looking to sign people, you know, we want some inside knowledge and information on those kind of stories. Yeah. And you started right at the beginning saying you, when you set up, you wanted to work with smaller brands.
[01:01:38] You, when you left a big agency work. Yeah. Dolche. Gaana. Yeah. Um, I mean, if you're a smaller brand, is this still a possibility? Does celebrities work with smaller brands? Yeah. I, to my point earlier, I think equity is the rate, the way that these brands should be going. I think that, look, there's a few. So the rec and football club model.
[01:01:59] Yeah, that's that what you're talking about. I mean, [01:02:00] perfect. Done. Sold. Give them some shares or cheap or, but it look it is that right? And then they're bought in literally. Yes. But it only works. Look, I've worked. You can't get rid of them though. No. I've worked with a lot of small businesses over my time and honestly most of them are not at a stage where that's a possibility.
[01:02:20] Um, because they're not mature enough in the way they view marketing and the way they're looking to grow. And ultimately, you know, just putting a celebrity in there, you've got to still facilitate all the other channels that you've got to be able to supercharge this at the right time. You know, how much equity?
[01:02:39] Well, I'm just thinking, you know, if, if thinking of my wife, are we having a celebrity investor into read? No. No, it's not really. I was thinking more people, Nicholas Business. Honey whiskey, honey rum drink. I mean, if you found a celebrity, how much equity would you be advising the company? It will all depend on our exit strategy.
[01:02:57] Really? Yeah. So, but what's the range? What's [01:03:00] the sort of, give us some example to name, I mean, you gonna be going at, what are we talking about here? You've got to be looking at like a, a decent wedge. So you've gotta be looking at like up to sort of 30, 40% sometimes depending on, up to, that's a big wedge if you've got no cash to put down, up front.
[01:03:15] Right. And you've got no signing fee. Um, and depending on the future projections of the business. And so giving away 30 or 40%, well, you, you could do on a small cut on a small business. But you'd say it'd be worth it because of the pickup. Celebrity could bring That could, yeah. I say it's worth it. Well, how, how does this happen?
[01:03:34] Is it only worth it if, depending on your strategy, you have to under, as I said, you can't just. It's the same with anything. You can't go and pay a PR agency to make your brand famous if you don't have your ducks in a row with all your other marketing, your CRM systems, the whole Ang, no, it falls flat and doesn't work.
[01:03:53] And I can tell you that because I come, so many small businesses come to me when PR doesn't work and unfortunately is PR is [01:04:00] earned. So therefore it doesn't work and there are no guarantees that you can pay me all the money in the world. I'll get you any coverage. Unfortunately, that's the way when you say it's earned because it's called earned media because we didn't pay.
[01:04:11] So advertisement placements obviously are guaranteed, but you'll be paying Yeah. You know, a huge amount of money for that. So the, going back to the equity part, it's the same thing. Like if you have a brand who's serious about growth and where they're aiming for and where the brand is going. Um, like I think there's a, uh, the brand, the hard seltzer brand, um, signed Ellie Golding for instance, you know, they worked with her, they signed her for a project, um, very early on when they launched.
[01:04:38] Um, and then she became a shareholder of the business. Um, and now it's part of its growth, right? So it, it does work, but it depends who's behind the brand and what, what the growth strategy is. Because if there's no growth and exit on this, then yeah, it's, it's not gonna, so the celebrity would be ducking for an.
[01:04:55] It. Yeah, typically bit like private equity. In fact, they all wanna make them money, don't they? They [01:05:00] all wanna make sure. So they would be sort of pushing a, a entrepreneur, they sort of move on or something. Yeah, but when we, you know, when the, the problem is we've, we've gone way past this idea of just slapping a, a celebrity's name on and hoping the product will sell.
[01:05:13] It doesn't work. You have got, the celebrity has to be massively invested. I mean, obviously Ryan Reynolds and Rex, him, as you can see, he's so invested. He's there, he's doing it. He's present. That is why that works. If he just bought it and left it, then it wouldn't be where it is today. So the buy-in has to be a 50 50 approach.
[01:05:33] That celebrity can't get away with it. And lots of celebrities as well, like, they're not ready for that themselves either. Their career is too busy and they can't supply the time. So, uh, you know, they've got to pressure test things from both sides. Um. There's a young brand called Valerie, um, that a friend of mine runs and we are just starting to help her scope out, um, celebrity involvement.
[01:05:55] It's for perimenopause and it's an incredible, um, [01:06:00] sort of supplement that you can drink and take. She's huge reviews doing really well, and she's busy going through rounds of funding. You know, there is a point in her journey where this is gonna start to, to really help her, like push them to the next level when hopefully we've got the likes of a Dina McCall.
[01:06:14] Fingers crossed. Yeah. You know, fronting it because it adds credibility and notoriety to what she's doing, but she's already had nearly two years proving why this works and. She's in that, in that realm of stepping stones to the right place to be able to see the benefit of working with a celebrity. So this sounds like to me, like a big growth area and a, and a good opportunity for your business.
[01:06:37] Do you think that the sort of PR agency, the traditional type of company, the um, you originally started your career in, do you think that has much, much more legs? Do you think that's going to change or go? I mean, I think it has legs. I don't know, I could not predict where it's gonna go because ultimately I feel the, [01:07:00] uh, reports that you read in the press and the industry news about pr, there's less PR people now coming through from a younger generation perspective.
[01:07:07] Um, and that's quite sad. 'cause I think fundamentally the core values of a pr, so I was just giving an example. I was on the phone the other day with Live Nation, somebody in the Middle East. We got on so well. And he just suddenly let something slip. And I realized, I said, did you used to work in pr? He said, did you work in pr?
[01:07:25] I was like, yeah. I was like, this is why we got on so well, there's a, there's a way in which a PR person and the person who works in pr, the skillset is just so useful to so many parts of marketing and in business, they're not ever shut off from an idea or they won't ever not go out of their way to help you, or they'll not ever go out of their way to solve a problem.
[01:07:47] And. That skillset set and mindset, I, I love, and I really attracted to people who have that, whether they work in PR or not. But often we find it in PR because PR is changing so much. And the way we solve problems for [01:08:00] brands isn't just a question of like, well, if you do this PRS done, you'll get in the Sunday Times, or you'll get in the sun and it'll be amazing.
[01:08:07] Um, that doesn't happen anymore. So PR shows up, social media, podcasting, substack, Reddit, you know, it's everywhere. Um, and the people who have that skillset, it's a shame that maybe we're finding it dying out because they're thinking there's not enough money in it anymore and maybe chasing other avenues where they'll get paid a lot more money.
[01:08:29] Right. And also just, I, I wanna ask this as a female founder Yeah. In what, you know, looking back at the agency world, certainly that I grew up in, 'cause I worked at Atch and Atch many years ago, was pretty male dominated. Yeah. What was your experience of that and what advice would you give to other women who are thinking of sharing this journey?
[01:08:51] It's a really interesting question because without a doubt, when I first started out, I was super male heavy and there's a lot of high fiving in meeting rooms. And I was definitely one of the [01:09:00] ones who would look around and think, I'm sure I just said that. How is, how are they now taking that idea? And I felt, you know, you felt small and minimized.
[01:09:11] Um. I would have other girls at the time, you know, coming to me for advice and support because I'm, I grew up with two older brothers and I'm from a very large family, so I didn't have much problem about speaking out. Um, so I've always kind of mentored people in that, in that realm, but for sure I've, I've seen it.
[01:09:28] Um, do I think about it now? No, I think the world's changed a lot. I don't think that culture necessarily exists like it did. I don't think it can do. Um, I think being a female founder is certainly, um, something that, um, I'd love to see more female founders do, like be around, especially at my age and my level.
[01:09:48] I don't think there's enough. Um. It's very difficult once you get out of our industry to get back in. Ultimately, I don't have children, but a lot of people have stepped out to have kids, and then it's impossible to get back in. And I can see [01:10:00] why it is running at a million miles an hour and if you don't jump on the train, you, you know, you are kicked off.
[01:10:04] Um, and that's how this industry's always been. I don't think it's changed in that, in that perspective, but I've always been a big advocate. I've always, for women in business especially, um, and mentoring and been a part of various mental groups and supported younger women coming through, um, I would love to see more women stick at it post sort of the age of 40 and, and keep in it, um, and see more women support other women.
[01:10:28] I, I think that's a big thing. Um, so yeah, I think anyone who's looking for support always hit up the dms. So, so where, so they can message you directly or, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm always up for a chat that's really kind. Pick up the phone, like old school. Yeah. So we'll, we'll make sure that they can connect with you through.
[01:10:47] Show notes. Yeah. And, and finally, um, Francesca, you know, for entrepreneurs building businesses right now, what's one, one we, what we might call mindset shift that we might need to make to stay relevant in [01:11:00] this new AI driven world to stay relevant in the AI world? Yeah, I would say, what do we need to be thinking about?
[01:11:10] Thinking about AI thinking, thinking about ai, think about how to be more human. Everyone else is thinking about ai. So I think we're gonna get to a point where you're gonna have to prove that you're human. So, you know, you, for instance, at the bottom of your emails where you used to write, um, you know, please excuse any spelling errors.
[01:11:26] Oh yeah. Now we're gonna be like, if you see spelling errors, no, it's been written by a human. Uh, I think humans are gonna have to prove they're human, um, more than ever, um, to prove the authenticity and realness behind it. Because everything we are consuming now is questionable, whether it's AI or not. And I do think humans.
[01:11:45] We'll question that to a point, um, and still crave the human interactions. Um, so as well as I do believe you need to get on board with AI and use it, which we do all the time. Um, I do think that we do need to look at [01:12:00] how we can maintain our humanness within what's going on in the world. You're completely right.
[01:12:06] I think it's very hard to know what's human and what's not on a lot of these platforms. Yeah. I just watched a horse jump out of an airplane on Instagram amazing. With a parachute on its back, and then half the comments were going, this is K Cruel. And the other half was saying, I'm amazed anyone thinks there's anything other than ai.
[01:12:23] So I sort of like, I do, you know what, now you've talked about it. I will get kids served up that same concept when I leave here. I think you probably will if your phone says, but it's sort of Yeah. But it's very hard to know what's real and what's not and what's human and what's not. So you are saying that the key to this is to be able to make people aware that you are real and.
[01:12:41] A hundred percent. What's better than that? Nothing. I agree. So, fantastic. Thank you very much. Keep human. Let's keep it that way. Yeah. I, I, I'm fully supportive of that message, so always at the end of my conversations, Francesca asks the same two questions. Yeah. Um, the first is because at re we love Mondays, the first question is, what gets you [01:13:00] up on a Monday morning?
[01:13:02] Oh, what gets me up on a Monday morning is usually the, uh, optimism I have for my week. I kind of get excited not knowing what's around the corner. Um, and I'm full of hope. And then I get to Thursday afternoons about now, and I'm thinking, oh, I'm a bit weary of this. I've only got one day left of this week.
[01:13:21] Did everything I thought might happen happen this week? I, I'm not sure there's still time left. Yes. I'm highly optimistic on a Monday and I get super excited. I love getting up early. I hit Pilates, usually it's like sort of 6 37, um, and kind of really. Really go at my day with yes, huge amounts of optimism.
[01:13:41] Very good. And lastly, and this is a question from my interview, but why you, um, where do you see yourself in five years time? Five years time, gosh, I see myself still doing what I'm doing now. Um, [01:14:00] but hopefully having brought on more team members, supporting more people in their endeavors to, to be successful on the back of what I'm building.
[01:14:11] And creating a really good camaraderie, um, in our office and team and people with that right vision that hopefully after my 10 years of practicing for my next 10 years, I may have just sussed it out a bit more. And yeah, you'll be halfway through your next 10 years. I hopefully I'll have got it right. By five years time.
[01:14:27] You'll just keep improving. I'm sure. Keep improving, keep learning, keep improving, keep improving, keep learning. I'm way off nailing any of this yet. I definitely have more in me. I think when I'm 50 there'll be something else that's gonna pop up, which I'm excited about. For sure. I mean, we are all, we're all learning and changing all the time.
[01:14:43] There's so much new thing. There's so much that's new. So much unknown. That's what's exciting. Exactly. Yeah. Thanks for coming to talk to me. Thank you so much. Happy. We real pleasure. Enjoyed that very much. Yeah, I've loved it. Thank you. Interesting. Can we just do the thank yous one more time because it was just the, that last noise that was, was [01:15:00] bothering us.
[01:15:00] Oh, okay. Thank you. You could hear it. Well, thank you very much for coming to talk to me, Francesca. I'm thorough. Enjoyed that conversation. Wish you all the best and look forward to seeing you in five years time. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you so much. Great. Yeah, I think we've got loads there.
[01:15:15] So Amazing. I'm happy with it. Yeah. Yeah, well done. That was interesting. Is that okay? Did we cover everything? Yeah, it was a whole, I mean, loads whole world of, of sort of, it seems to me that this is quite your, your.
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