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Along the way, she navigated major industry shifts, acquired the legendary Thomas Cook brand, founded the Hays Travel Foundation, and built a leading apprenticeship programme that now employs hundreds of apprentices. But this does not come without massive hurdles, heartbreak and sheer determination to turn crisis into a success.
In this week’s episode of all about business, Irene shares the leadership principles and bold decisions behind her success. She reveals how she scaled without outside investors, why she risked everything to save thousands of jobs at Thomas Cook, and how she rebuilt stronger than ever after Covid-19 brought global travel to a standstill.
Irene also explores the “soft infrastructure” behind Hays Travel’s five-star customer experience and why apprenticeships and investing in young talent are central to her long-term vision.
Check out Hays Travel’s website: https://www.haystravel.co.uk/
Follow Hays Travel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hays-travel
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
[00:00:00] Frankie: A Rolling B. Rolling. Rolling. Mics are rolling. Rolling. Camera C is also rolling all about business with Dan. Take one. And
[00:00:19] James: action. Well, today on all about business, I couldn't be more delighted to welcome Dame Irene Hayes. Uh, Irene is the majority owner and chair of Hayes Travel, which is the largest independent travel agency in Britain.
[00:00:34] James: She has a remarkable story, which I'm very much looking forward to, uh, asking her about. Um, but Hayes Travel has grown from a little shop in Seaham in County Durham, where it was started originally by Irene's husband John, to a company today that has 512 branches around the uk and a turnover of 3 billion pounds.
[00:00:56] James: An amazing journey. Um, Irene, I've got so many questions to ask you, um, but the first one is the beginnings, the origin story of Hayes Travel. Yeah. Could you share that with us, please?
[00:01:07] Irene: Yeah, absolutely. Um, the business started in 1980 and, um, John had come back from university and knew that he wanted to start a business.
[00:01:20] Irene: So we looked at options about what the business could be and um, there were two. The first one because primarily his dad was a joiner in the coy was that it could be an undertaker. His dad, so undertakers, his, his dad could make coffins. Oh,
[00:01:39] James: that was one that you considered.
[00:01:40] Irene: And the second, uh, potential, because there wasn't a travel agent in Seaman County, Durham was to open a travel agency.
[00:01:47] Irene: And John's mum had a baby ware shop in sea. Um, so the decision was made that, um, John's dad would build a counter at the back of the baby ware shop and he would put a garden trellis. To divide the baby growers and the pants and the dresses right from the travel agencies. And then he built a brochure rack on the left hand side as he walked in.
[00:02:13] Irene: And, um, he started selling buts and puns. And in the first year, um, I still have the documents, the business turned over total the transaction value of 812 pounds.
[00:02:26] James: Wow. So he chose, he chose travel over undertaking, I suppose it's more repeat, repeat business in travel, ideally. And it's thankfully you say, because conferences
[00:02:34] Irene: will be different.
[00:02:35] James: Yeah. More fun, I imagine. Um, and it started in the back of this shop. So how did it grow from there? What happened next?
[00:02:42] Irene: Okay. Well, excuse me. I'd like to say it was a sort of a straightforward process, but it was anything. But, um, so having sold Butlins and Pons, the decision was made that we'd like to sell Thompson holidays, and that required, um, a relationship with abta, the Association of British Travel Agents.
[00:03:03] Irene: And at the time, so that was a regulatory organization? It was, yeah. Yes. Um, yeah. Well, Quai quasi regulatory. Mm-hmm. It, it, it's not a regulatory, um, organization such as the Civil Aviation Authority, for example. But nevertheless, it was necessary to get ab e um, branding right. Um, for the sale of our holidays, which was a very powerful endorsement.
[00:03:27] Irene: Uh, and at the time there was new email. Email. So we wrote a letter and needed to fill in an application form, and then an inspector came. I had to have a look at the store. So we opened the door and this is in sea. Made his way. Yeah, in this small shopping scene. Made his way through, said Babygros and party, frocks and tights, um, and spoke to the staff and then went on his way and wrote a letter and said.
[00:03:56] Irene: Well, no, no, you can't really be a member of Abta because you're not really a travel agent, are you? Um, because you haven't even got your own front door. So we wrote back and said, is that the only reason? And he said Yes. And then we wrote back and said, well come to our attention that there's a shop in London called Herod's, and in the back is a travel shop called Thomas Cook.
[00:04:21] Irene: Could you explain the difference, please? And he said, oh, okay. Then being now a license.
[00:04:27] James: Well, good for you. I mean, yeah, you've gotta be consistent, obviously. And, and so that how you, you fought for your license Yes. And things took off, so to speak from there by the sound of things.
[00:04:35] Irene: Yeah, basically. So we went, um, from one shop to two shops.
[00:04:39] Irene: The second shop is in Sunland, where we currently have our head office. So all of our businesses are operated from, um, a very lovely head office right in the center of, of Sunland. You've just gone back up to the Premier League. I just mentioned that once. Yeah. I mean,
[00:04:56] James: my son-in-law is a Jordy. Um, we love him.
[00:04:59] James: He's called Jake, but we did point out to him for a moment. Sunland were top of the league, top
[00:05:02] Irene: of the premier for three hours actually, which amused us. Yeah. But we were all taking, we were all taking Sunland for baking it back. Screenshots. Yeah. Makes for a good look. Darby And, and I, I bought a part of the football club for my husband, which is another story.
[00:05:16] Irene: So you are a part owner of Sunland. Yeah. I know you love Football Consortium with Nile Quinn. Right. Called the Drummer Ville Consortium, which was at. Honestly talk about kid in a sweet shop for my husband. But we, uh, at the time we were in the championship. I'm going off on a tangent here. Is that okay? No, go on.
[00:05:32] Irene: No, no. This, this is good. We like tangents. We were, um, uh, we were in the championship and we did a three year plan and we decided that we'd probably get in up to the Premier League in year three, and we did it in year one, so we had a ball. Yeah. But, but getting back to the main point, yeah. It, we, um, started operating different stores and taking over things like hairdressers and butcher shops in small towns and villages in the northeast, and then grew steadily from there.
[00:06:00] James: Right. Very good. And I understand that you were very clear from very early on about how you were gonna approach business or you, you, you had some values that you sort of wrote down or agreed. Yes.
[00:06:13] Irene: Yeah. Could you
[00:06:14] James: explain what happened or how you did that? 'cause I think that's really sort of fundamental here.
[00:06:17] James: Yeah.
[00:06:17] Irene: So I think we, we'd bought an MBA and, and had, you know, what, what makes a good business in bringing clarity to one's purpose and objectives. And it probably wasn't year one, maybe year two or three probably. Yeah. But earlier on. And we decided by then what we'd, what we'd need to do is, is articulate what the vision was for the company.
[00:06:43] Irene: And there we were at the time with a handful of shops and we decided we wanted to be the most profitable, independent travel agency in the UK through valuing our people, our customers, and the communities. Um. Where we serve them. And that, that third principle as a third pillar of Hayes travel is vitally important to us.
[00:07:08] Irene: And we spend probably as much time doing that as we do in, um, checking on the bottom line. Uh, and that was a big thing coming from the backgrounds where, uh, both of our fathers had worked for the Collieries Mine in Washington and John's in sea. Um, and we'd always been part of a community and had always given back to the community right from, from day one.
[00:07:32] Irene: And clearly that's progressed and developed as the business has become bigger. But yeah, so the, we set the vision, first of all, and it actually hasn't changed very much. I've got the early inductions that we did and making sure that everybody in the business understands the purpose of the company, but more importantly what their role is within it.
[00:07:56] Irene: So. Um, we then had started to, to do newspaper advertising and we, we always had made the same comment, smile Hayes, travel, nobody offers you more. And, and that has stayed with us. That's your a smile.
[00:08:13] James: Nobody offers you more than Hayes travel. I, I enjoying it just now.
[00:08:16] Irene: So, so we, um, decided to take the word smile and I used the mnemonic of that to, uh, create our values, um, which again, haven't really changed that much over the years, which is being supportive, motivational, innovative, loyal, and excellent.
[00:08:36] Irene: And then we unpack each of those and describe what that means in work, working life and in working with each other. And then we cascade that down in a golden thread all the way from the vision through the values to. The performance appraisal and expectations. So in a year there might be under the main vision, our core objectives, you know, we want to sell more crews, then we make sure that in our marketing, people know that we want to sell more crews in our stores in advertising and creative.
[00:09:13] Irene: So, so, yes. I think even from those early days, um, that's been really important to just be clear for everybody about what the business is about, what it stands for, and what it holds to be at the core of, of what it's about.
[00:09:31] James: It is very clear. I, I, I think that's a, it is very interesting to me that, that you've done that so specifically because I think it's very helpful for everyone in an organization to have that clarity.
[00:09:41] James: And I, I like the, the fact that it's also consistent, doesn't change. When so much around us is changing, I think that's a valuable lesson for anyone. I'd be
[00:09:49] Irene: grateful if it sell our marketing department. Yeah. No, marketing people always wanna change stuff,
[00:09:53] James: but actually, you know, it's often, sometimes just stick with it, you know, because they get bored of things.
[00:09:56] James: I think I'm, I'm, I have the same problem with my marketing department, but sometimes, but that's good too. They're trying to be innovative, so, but, uh, it's a, it's striking and one of the things when I was researching Hayes Travel was I looked up your Trustpilot score and it's, it's remarkable. I, it's five stars with 4.9, but it's the highest and it's got a very large number of people rating you at five stars.
[00:10:22] James: Um, and it's truly remarkable. And I was thinking about that. So. Tell me how that happens. What, what
[00:10:31] Irene: I think
[00:10:31] James: what, what's the essence of this? Of customer satisfaction?
[00:10:34] Irene: Oh, I think it, you, you go back, right back to the vision about, um, putting your people first. That before you can help your customer, before you can help your community, you have to have great people who understand, um, the, the difference that we want to make.
[00:10:52] Irene: And I think the difference we want to make, uh, because travel really is an, an emotional purchase. You know, it's not like going to a hardware store and picking up a widget. Or a spanner, um, which is quite, I think, clinical and transactional. Mm. Ours is, is, is, is very different. Holidays are usually, um, one of the most expensive things that anybody will buy in the course of a year.
[00:11:21] Irene: They're buying a new car or a, you know, an expensive sofa or having the bathroom, a kitchen done. And, uh, and it's very precious time. Very, very precious time and increasingly so. People value experience above stuff Now, um. And in our training and in our induction, uh, being clear about what we stand for around looking after our customers, I don't really like the expression, um, of, you know, having your back.
[00:11:56] Irene: We want our customers back wherever they are in the world and whatever's happening in the world. And there are an awful lot of challenging events happening in the world. Some, um, you know, mother Nature global warming. Wildfires, ash clouds, um, but some manmade, you know, insurgencies, uh, wars, which impact travel.
[00:12:20] Irene: Um, and, and we want, um, people to know that we care. We care profoundly about them. If they've booked with us, it's more than buying a widget. Uh, either is an emotional connection and even bigger emotional connection if it's an anniversary or a wedding. Um, so our people know that that is who we are and that the expectation is that they will be in the performance appraisal, rewarded and recognized for how good they are at that,
[00:12:56] Frankie: right?
[00:12:56] Irene: How good they are at caring for people, and just seeing those words when they're in the middle of a performance appraisal for. It is something I think some companies find uncomfortable or fluffy or, um, difficult to get hold of. It's not really if you just tell people that's what we're about and we're about, you know, value and expertise and, um, choosing the right holiday, you know, those, those sorts of things.
[00:13:28] Irene: But ultimately we want people to know that we're there and, and clearly there's, as online travel agencies emerge and there are some very good ones, but they don't have Mary sitting in the local shop who has, you've handed over your money too. And if you're in Dubai Airport and you're supposed to be on a connecting flight to Maldives and your flight's got a problem, uh, we want our people to get the first flights on the next plane.
[00:13:59] Irene: Right? It's about, about being crystal clear that it, we are not in the transaction business. Right.
[00:14:08] James: So Mary's there for you. If you make the call from the Holiday Mary's there, Mary Mary's not
[00:14:12] Irene: there. We'll know exactly where you're supposed to be when, because of the systems that we have. So if Mary's on a holidays or a day off, um, we, we will know where that customer is.
[00:14:24] Irene: And in fact, the very first thing that we do, if we know that there's been a problem, um, we'll see how many people we have in that part of the world. And sometimes we ring them before we ring, they ring us. Right. That's good. So, yeah.
[00:14:35] James: So you've talked about the, I I I, I've heard the expression, I think it was from you, the, the soft infrastructure is more important than the hard infrastructure in many cases.
[00:14:45] James: Is that, is that what we are exploring here? Is that what you mean by the soft infrastructure?
[00:14:49] Irene: Partially, yeah. I think
[00:14:51] James: What else would you cover with that?
[00:14:52] Irene: So soft infrastructure is providing, well, I'll start with hard, hard infrastructure is providing people with the processes, with the technology, with the hardware, with the right environment, um, to, to carry out the business.
[00:15:08] Irene: But the soft infrastructure is about telling people how to relate to other people, telling people how to, um, um, um, listen. Right. Carefully show other people and understand what they want. So you and I might have very different preferences. You know, I like one week of extreme learning about something I've never done before, and then one week of extreme lying on the sun lounge with a cocktail and reading a book.
[00:15:38] James: Right. And you have to get them both in the same trip. Yeah. That's good. Well, you do, but, but
[00:15:42] Irene: that, that's really, that's really what I like. Yeah. You, you, you might like going to ancient cities and, and learning about the history. Yeah. And, you know, food or wine or, or whatever. So, so there's soft infrastructure is teaching people how to do that.
[00:15:58] Irene: And increasingly, honestly, increasingly teaching young people who come out of college or come out of school that it's okay to smile at somebody. Um. Because they think it's really cool to be sultry and suen and because to spend most of their time on their, um, telephones interaction, right? Isn't, isn't, uh, isn't quite the same.
[00:16:24] Irene: But, but often, well, I guess because you don't smile at, you
[00:16:27] James: smile at a person. Well, also, is that seriously true? You teaching people Oh, seriously,
[00:16:31] Irene: true. Yeah. How they smile. And one example, uh, would be that, and I say to them, you know, it's really important that you, you smile at people and you have to smile with your eyes as well as you smile with your mouth and be interested in, in, in them.
[00:16:47] Irene: And that they're all sitting there like this. With their su sultry, imagining themselves on a selfie. What are
[00:16:56] James: they imagining? Yeah, they, James Bond on,
[00:16:58] Irene: they're, they're thinking, yeah, right. Yeah. I'm gonna go around smiling. The way you go around smiling. Yeah. And making me
[00:17:04] James: smile, just thinking about it.
[00:17:05] Irene: But every, every time I bump into them, I go, hello.
[00:17:10] Irene: And if they don't say hello and smile, I jump back in front of them and go, hello. And eventually they go, hello. So smile is a big part of your
[00:17:17] James: business. Natural in all sorts of ways then, but it,
[00:17:20] Irene: it's a, it's truism and you know, we had, um, it could feel better
[00:17:25] James: if they smile anyway, don't they? I feel better
[00:17:27] Irene: than smile.
[00:17:27] Irene: But I mean, in terms of emotional connection, it's one of the, you know. Yeah. But, but right from, um, the start on their introduction and in their training and all the way through to their development, you know, we're all still developing and learning. I think. It's vitally important that they feel that they have got that level of support for whatever the challenge is.
[00:17:51] Irene: And that's what I call soft in infrastructure.
[00:17:54] James: Right.
[00:17:55] Irene: Um, and, and sometimes I, I, I, I think it's easy to not spend attention on, on that because people are so busy writing processes and this is what you should do and that's what you should do in writing how you should transact. Right. Rather than how you should, um, uh, have a, have a good quality relationship.
[00:18:19] Irene: So you deliver the best holiday for somebody.
[00:18:21] James: Right. Which is ultimately what the customer wants.
[00:18:24] Irene: Yeah.
[00:18:25] James: Yeah. So just going back to your sort of business journey, you started opening shops now, from what I understand, you didn't take on any outside investors.
[00:18:35] Irene: No.
[00:18:36] James: You sort of, I mean, basically sort of bootstrapped the business Yeah.
[00:18:39] James: With your own cash flow. Yeah. How do you do that? 'cause I mean, it's grown, as I mentioned in the introduction, hugely 512 branches, 3 billion turnover. This is a big operation.
[00:18:50] Irene: Well, that bit's okay, but in addition to that, we have 750 home workers. So that grew significantly. Well, they're
[00:18:57] James: working in Hayes Travel as well.
[00:18:58] Irene: Uh, they're all self-employed. It's a self-employed model, but they all, uh, work under the banner of Hayes Travel and we do all of the back office. And um, also we do, um, the back office and help in business support and in investment for 122 independent travel agents who are not ACE travel. Right. And then in addition to that, we have a tour operation and addition to that, we have a large, very large foreign exchange business.
[00:19:26] Irene: Right. So it's grown in all of those areas. There's a lot
[00:19:30] James: of innovation going on here then, isn't there? Yes, yes. Yeah.
[00:19:33] Irene: Yeah. Over the years. But not, not just. And where do those ideas
[00:19:36] James: come from? I mean, to go into foreign Well, they come from everybody. Everybody.
[00:19:39] Irene: Yeah. So we all are required to do back to the floor every year.
[00:19:43] Irene: Um, and it. When we go back to the floor, the whole purpose of that is not to have your photograph taken for the, you know, to, to, to prove that you've put a uniform and, and gone there. It's to actually learn about what needs to be done, but some of the innovation, um, that we have from our people, it's phenomenal.
[00:20:04] Irene: And during COVID I asked, we'd obviously just acquired Thomas Cook, um, on the 8th of October. Yeah. I wanna
[00:20:11] James: ask you about that In, in
[00:20:12] Irene: 2019 and went straight into COVID. But going back to innovation, which is at our core, right in the middle of our smile values, um, I don't think that anybody, anybody has the monopoly on innovation.
[00:20:29] Irene: And in fact, the person who's at the front end delivering that service will know 10 times better than I will. How to make that, um. Environment or that process or that relationship with the customer better, easier, or maybe improve things for their colleagues. You know, why are we doing it like this? Could we not just, you know?
[00:20:54] Irene: Yeah. And I think it's important, again, to make space in companies, to allow people to have that voice and to. Give them the opportunity to innovate and to reward them for, for doing that.
[00:21:08] James: So it is partly creating a culture where that's really encouraged and celebrated
[00:21:12] Irene: and, and talking, talking about it. So every, every conference I do a, a monthly, uh, video and talk to everybody, and usually I'll choose one of the values to talk about, right?
[00:21:25] Irene: I don't talk about all of them all of the time. And I, I, I try and find opportunities to endorse or find great stories about where people have, have demonstrated one of the values and how impressed I've been and what has happened as a result of that.
[00:21:43] James: Yeah.
[00:21:43] Irene: So you, you're living it and breathing it, and it's not something.
[00:21:47] Irene: Which is just on the wall of our training room, though. It is on the wall of our training room. Yeah. But it, it's much more than that. We live it and breathe, breathe it and talk about it all, all the time. I mean, one, one example, if you take the um, I mean, I feel as if I'm moving on, but the innovation bit it, yeah.
[00:22:09] Irene: In travel, which is the biggest industry in the world. If you stand still, you go backwards. So it's, it's important to innovate in terms of technologies, but it's also, uh, really important to innovate around how public taste and public trends and people's desires for what they want to do on holiday. And be really focused and clear about making sure that your horizon scanning, um, you know, and not looking down in the lighthouse.
[00:22:42] Irene: You, you have to take your brain up and make sure you're looking at the research, making sure you're watching the trends on TikTok, on Instagram, on what's happening, um, and where people, where people want to go. Because 40 years ago, and where 45 this year, 40 years ago, you'd have a brochure rack. Uh, you know, with, with fixed prices in, you know, you want to go to lore tomorrow, it'll be 92 pounds or, or whatever, you know, for a family fall probably, um, um, that, that used to be the inspiration for people, but social media has transformed that.
[00:23:23] Irene: So I think innovation is, is, is necessary to make sure that you keep up to speed with what the customers want, what it is that they want, not what the, the business wants them to want. Because those days have just gone. So if spoonfeeding a brochure doesn't hack it anymore.
[00:23:42] James: No. So it's interesting you talk, talk about not hacking it anymore.
[00:23:45] James: You mentioned that Thomas Cook. Journey. Um, and I'm recalling back in 2019, you and your husband John, were described as the heroes of the High Street because you, you picked up Thomas Cook when it was down, and I think you saved two and a half thousand jobs.
[00:24:02] Irene: We
[00:24:02] James: did doing that, which is remarkable. Um, but it was really on its knees, wasn't it?
[00:24:07] James: And you've sort of made a success of that despite a pandemic and all sorts of other, i, I, I imagine substantial challenges. Could you share that story?
[00:24:20] Irene: Yes. Okay. So on the 23rd of September, in 2019, Thomas Cook failed. Um, and Thomas Cook had been a great brand, but what it was really good at was training.
[00:24:32] Irene: The frontline people. And it wasn't the frontline people's fault that the business went down. No, never is. Um, so we thought, oh, you know, it's a real shame for Thomas Cook. We wonder how they're going to handle it. So, um, the official receiver who was in the cabinet office appointed KPMG to, to look at the options.
[00:24:57] Irene: Um, uh, it, it,
[00:25:00] James: sorry, Irene, there's a noise. I might have to ask that question again or you can just start there. Sorry. It doesn't have very often, but that's too noisy for us.
[00:25:13] Irene: Should I start from Thomas Cook? Failed, aren't they? So, hang
[00:25:19] James: on a sec. Go. It's.
[00:25:28] James: Yeah.
[00:25:32] James: Fade. You say Frankie, when you can't hear it, it's, yeah, I can still hear it on the mic.
[00:25:45] James: Sometimes you get helicopters. There were worse 'cause there's usually something going on and then they don't go away.
[00:25:58] Frankie: Still hear.
[00:26:00] James: It's gone now. Okay. So yeah, you start with Thomas Cook failed.
[00:26:03] Irene: So Thomas Cook failed on the 23rd of September in 2019. And, um, Thomas Cook were a fantastic brand and in being great partners of ours for a very long time. Um, and they trained their people very, very well. And we were feeling for the people who had been told some on video, some via text that they had been made redundant.
[00:26:29] Irene: Uh, we clearly saw an opportunity and wondered what the process would look like and what it looked like was that the official receiver appointed KPMG to have a look at what could be done with the stores. Meanwhile, there was a, a national, um, I, I, I think. So everybody felt that somebody could have done something for Thomas Cook, the way the German government helped Thomas Cook in Germany.
[00:26:57] Irene: So there was an awful lot of pressure to try and look at options very quickly. So the process, uh, that they came up with was bids to operate some of the travel agencies. And the bids had to be in on the 8th of October at, um, five o'clock I think. And normally you'd have due diligence, you'd have months of due diligence if you were making an acquisition.
[00:27:22] Irene: And, and we didn't have that opportunity. So what we did was we took an AA road atlas and put it on the kitchen table and had a look at those areas that we would like to operate the stores. So we started off in Leeds, Yorkshire, Scotland, where we, so this is you and John together in the kitchen? Yeah. Yes.
[00:27:44] Irene: Yeah, in the kitchen. Right. Good. And we would circle. And, and write down the areas that we were interested in, excuse me. And then map that against where the stores were, where it made geographic sense from a point of view of supervision or advertising and so on. Um, and this went on for a few days, and then eventually, uh, we came to the conclusion we should just take them all.
[00:28:07] Irene: So, uh, it, it got to four o'clock and there was a particular format that we needed, which included what the, you know, the value of the transaction, but what we could do for these people. So it was a combination. Um, and, uh, KPMG rang us at that evening and said, you've been successful. And we said, right. Where, where are the keys and when can we start?
[00:28:35] Irene: And they said, tomorrow. So it, uh, they said, but it's embargoed until nine o'clock tomorrow morning on the 9th of October. So I rang a friend of mine, we didn't have a PR person, and I rang a friend of mine, um, and I'd said, uh, are you busy tomorrow? And they said, well, yes, but can I help? What did you want?
[00:28:59] Irene: And I said, well, we, John and I have just made a decision and we think it could be newsworthy. So, so the next, um, so she said, yeah, tell me what it is, tell me a little bit about it. And I said, we've just acquired Thomas Cook. And there was a pause and she said, yeah, I think that'll be newsworthy. So anyway, she came in the next morning and we had literally hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of newspapers and, and, um, television stations and radio.
[00:29:29] Irene: Um. And, and it went, it went from there. But we were fortunate enough to recover not all of the Thomas Cook staff, but um, 'cause a lot of them had immediately needed the work and gone off and been successful elsewhere. Mm-hmm. But, uh, they, they have been fantastic ever since. And, um, clearly within 12 weeks, having acquired the people and all the stores, we couldn't sell a holiday anywhere in the world.
[00:30:01] James: That's because of the pandemic.
[00:30:03] Irene: That's right.
[00:30:03] James: So the acquisition of Thomas Cook, did that take you to your number one goal from the, you know, the original objectives you had in your kitchen? Did that make you the number one at that point? Or was it later?
[00:30:15] Irene: No, we were already the largest. You were already
[00:30:18] James: but without Thomas Cook?
[00:30:18] James: Yes. Without Thomas Cook. So you didn't need to do that to get you to your goal? No.
[00:30:21] Irene: Oh, no, no, no. And we wouldn't have done it just. No, I know,
[00:30:25] James: but it, so you already were at that point, you could say. Yeah,
[00:30:27] Irene: we were the largest independent travel agency with about 160 stalls
[00:30:34] James: at the time. So how many did that add that Thomas Cook at
[00:30:35] Irene: the time it was 555, uh, Thomas Cook added to what we already had.
[00:30:42] Irene: So it was, you know, more than, well, it was two thirds. So, um, but the, so you've done some reorganizing with the transaction was framed, was that It was a license to operate and we had 18 months to see which stores would be profitable because many of the stores were not profitable. Right. And many of them, um, what I would call trophy assets, they were in places where we would never pay that much rent.
[00:31:07] Irene: Never Arids. Um, so in, you know, in, in all of the big shopping complexes, there'd been really posh, grandiose Thomas Cook that would be losing. Lots of money. Right. And we don't operate like that. We don't, we, we, we just want to deliver good service. We don't need the gloss and Right glitz and glamor. Um, so
[00:31:30] James: you'd look for different locations.
[00:31:32] Irene: We looked at different locations, but some of the stores closed because just that end of town was wrong or the, we couldn't negotiate with the landlords, but it, it took an awful long time. And as you say, we went into the pandemic. Now, uh, going into the pandemic, furlough didn't actually come into being until, uh, quite, quite a way in.
[00:31:55] Irene: No, I
[00:31:55] James: remember.
[00:31:56] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:31:57] Irene: Um, so we needed to do something and at the time, uh, the, all of the supermarkets were providing, um, delivery services because people couldn't go into the supermarkets as you'd recall. Mm-hmm. And then eventually they let people go if they could queue up and they would only allow, you know.
[00:32:13] Irene: Yeah. I
[00:32:13] James: remember standing in those queues. Yes. Yeah.
[00:32:16] Irene: So, um, I thought, oh, well, we're particularly vulnerable. People couldn't go to the stores even then. No. So vulnerable people were advised to stay at home and I thought, we've got all these fantastic people who were wonderful at customer service. So I, uh, contacted every supermarket that I could to ask if we could do the call center operation for them, um, and was unsuccessful.
[00:32:44] Irene: But I had spoken to a couple of call center operations and, um, on the ninth pitch, I failed eight times. And on the ninth pitch, somebody said, well, you've got no track record around this. And I said, I categorically our people will be fantastic for you. Um, so we got the training team and they gave us 50 heads in the first instance, but it was a very, very painful process to get to even 50 heads.
[00:33:16] Irene: And they were, those people, the first 50 were so successful that by the middle of the Pandemic Pandemic we had approximately 4,000 people alternating between working like 2000 would work. On the calls 2000 would be trying to help people whose holidays were booked for that time. Right. And the last thing we wanted to do was take our eye off the ball of customer care.
[00:33:46] Irene: And during that time, uh, it, it was acknowledged that it, his travel were looking after the customers and, uh, doing all that they paid, you were just refunding them, I imagine. Right. We, we paid to have laptops taken to all of our people so they could continue to look after their customers. And the money that we were paid from the call center, paid for the salaries of the staff who were in the main either transferring holidays for what they hoped would be a time when the pandemic would be over, or for people who were really worried about their money or who had also lost their jobs.
[00:34:19] Irene: They just wanted their money back. Mm.
[00:34:21] Frankie: So
[00:34:21] Irene: we were paying people to give money away.
[00:34:24] James: Right.
[00:34:24] Irene: For a significant period of time. Um, but then, but that's
[00:34:28] James: punishing to your bottom line. Yes. It must been quite absolutely
[00:34:31] Irene: punishing. Yeah, so in, it was the February of, um, 2020 that the pandemic began in earnest. There were evidence of it before that, but 2020, um, and in, in March we lost 11 million pounds in one month.
[00:34:52] Irene: Straight
[00:34:52] James: staggering
[00:34:53] Irene: of our balance sheet because we didn't want to, we had, but you must have
[00:34:56] James: had a strong balance sheet.
[00:34:57] Irene: Oh, a very strong balance sheet as we have, as we have today. Yeah. Which is say, look, and I took the facility of a loan, but we never touched it.
[00:35:05] Frankie: Right.
[00:35:05] Irene: Because all of our other people, but they kept swapping so that they didn't lose their skills in travel.
[00:35:11] Frankie: Right.
[00:35:11] Irene: Um, but they were amazing. They were so flexible and in the main, we couldn't keep everyone. Um, for example, we had to let the foreign exchange people go because at the time, the criteria was you could only keep these people and pay them if they could
[00:35:26] Frankie: Yes.
[00:35:26] Irene: Do the mainstream job. But because we weren't doing any foreign exchange and because they didn't have the skill set of training to help people with their changes to holidays, we had to let some people go.
[00:35:40] Irene: The letters of support and thanks that we received from all of our people during COVID and they virtually all finished with the same sentiment. Thank you very much John and Irene. We will pay you back and pay me back. They have several, several times over
[00:35:58] James: so, 'cause it wasn't long after that that you sadly lost John because That's right.
[00:36:02] James: He died and he During the pandemic. Yeah,
[00:36:03] Irene: still in the middle of the pandemic in November. So incredibly tough. Yeah, it was, it was really tough. Um, and he, one of us had to go into the office, right? So we were working from home clearly, but one of us needed to go in and, um, John said, look, I'll go in. And I said, well, I'm gonna come in anyway 'cause I've got stuff to do in the office.
[00:36:24] Irene: And he said, why don't you, uh, stay home? We were having the aga serviced. Yeah. And the aga man was sitting on the floor with his mask on. Um, and John and I had a cup of tea with him before John left. And then John said, look, why, why don't you stay home? I'll go in and do this and then we'll go for a walk along the beach.
[00:36:42] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:36:43] Irene: So, um, I said goodbye. Gave him a kiss at the door as we always did. And off he went in and received a call, um, probably about 40 minutes later from our security people who were manning the office right to say that they had three ambulances there and would I please come? And that was it.
[00:37:04] James: That was that that was it.
[00:37:06] James: Sudden.
[00:37:06] Irene: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, he, uh, as I said at the time, you know, he, um, he died in a place that we would've wanted to die. Yeah. And we'd had a very happy morning with the Arga man, um, and had a nice cup of tea and, uh, yes. So,
[00:37:25] James: but you, you were sort of, obviously have been married a long time and business partners as well, so then af after this loss mm-hmm.
[00:37:32] James: You are sort of on your own to run this Yeah. In this tough situation.
[00:37:38] Irene: Yeah. So it's one thing when there are two of you waking up in the middle of the night and you've got a problem. I think it's a whole other thing. If you're on your own in the middle of the night and you, you know, we used to. I'd be tossing and turning about how long this pandemic would go on for and how long we could keep paying people and what we could do in it.
[00:37:56] Irene: And I would run past, he was running the travel side and I was running the, the call center operation, which required sometimes four, five times a day calls with the. Uh, the main, the main company. Um, but they were, that company were fantastic with us and we were fantastic and they employed lots of different companies, but at Hay travel, hay travels, customer care went, went straight, pretty much straight to the top.
[00:38:23] Irene: Once we got the hang of it that, um, we had to be quicker on the calls and not ask people what they were having for their lunch. And because we'd spend all of our time training people to, to, to listen and be interested in people. But yeah, it was that, that was the hardest thing, the waking up in the middle of the night and, um, not having someone to share that problem with.
[00:38:45] Irene: But, but it, it was fine. And in fact, the fact that I, I needed to work a must work was of itself therapy, I think. Yeah.
[00:38:57] James: Well it was interesting you said so many people wrote to you saying, John and Irene will pay you back, and they kind of have Oh, they have spades, haven't they?
[00:39:03] Irene: Oh, absolutely,
[00:39:05] James: because your journey.
[00:39:06] James: Since then, it's been remarkable.
[00:39:08] Irene: Yeah. Yeah. We bought, I mean, you've really
[00:39:09] James: grown the business. We have since then. We have. Um, and I think so what have you done since the business terms
[00:39:14] Irene: So, so regrettably, lots of businesses, very good businesses. I run out of uni during COVID, as I'm sure you know. Yeah. Um, and they just, they just couldn't afford to continue to operate in smaller businesses that wouldn't have had the strength of the balance sheet that Hays Travel did and still has to this day.
[00:39:37] Irene: And because we recovered very quickly and all of our people are so amazing that once we could sell holidays. We'd never really had the opportunity to see what the combination of the Hayes travel culture and the Thomas Cook people, but our existing Hayes Travel people and our Thomas Cook people worked so hard that we built up, um, the balance sheet very quickly.
[00:40:02] Irene: And people used to come to us because we, they knew that if we bought their business, we'd look after their people.
[00:40:09] James: Right.
[00:40:09] Irene: And their people would have, so people
[00:40:10] James: who built their own travel agencies, that's, and think of retiring. That's right. And
[00:40:14] Irene: they would have. Opportunities to flourish. So I am agnostic about where talent comes from.
[00:40:21] Irene: It doesn't matter whether it comes from Hazel, Thomas Cook, or any of the businesses that we've bought since I can demonstrate that if they come in and they're twinkly. And they have talent and aptitude and passion and hunger. They will progress in his travel and they'll be developed and supported by our training and development team to do that.
[00:40:41] Irene: And lots of them have, but it was a shame that so many good businesses had to do that. But it, it has favored his travel. And we have gone, um, gone on from strength to strength and, and being able to acquire now some, some larger businesses.
[00:40:57] James: We just bought one recently, haven't you? I did, yeah. What
[00:41:00] Irene: our first, uh, online, what have you bought online?
[00:41:02] Irene: Um, uh, uh, cruise company because there's so much growth in cruise in general. Right. In hardware and in terms of innovation, I think the cruise industry is amazingly innovative. It used to be the place where people over 50 Yes. You know, went on holiday, not anymore. Um, now it's a, it's a great family destination to go, a cruise and, um.
[00:41:26] Irene: Uh, it's very popular, so, so yeah, we just look at where op, the, where opportunities for, for synergies and growth. And over the past, that'd be five years now, right? Five years this year since John died. During the five years we've bought, um, I can't remember whether the last, the last one will be our 10th, right.
[00:41:48] Irene: Probably 10th,
[00:41:50] James: 10 companies.
[00:41:51] Irene: 10 separate companies. Yeah. And,
[00:41:54] James: and was that a new strategy because, did you buy companies before the pan? Yes, we did. So you'd always been acquiring? So, so we've grown both. Um, so you know how to organically inquisitively. Yeah. And you've done that without taking on debt though, by the sound of things.
[00:42:06] James: Have you filled a strong balance sheet?
[00:42:08] Irene: We have never taken any debt and I couldn't, so it was all
[00:42:11] James: out of cash flow,
[00:42:12] Irene: all, all out of our balance sheet. But we didn't, we didn't, I have just taken the first dividend. Since we bought the football club, which was a long time ago, um, to build the house. So you're still involved in the football club?
[00:42:24] Irene: Um, no, but I love it dear. You still love it? Yes. So
[00:42:27] James: you're a season ticket holder?
[00:42:29] Irene: No, no. I have a box.
[00:42:30] James: You have a box fellas still, so, yeah. Oh, you all got one up on me there then. So you're very good.
[00:42:40] Irene: That sounds really pretentious, doesn't it? No, but sounds good. Impressed. Anyway, I do, I do sort of, and you know, I clearly, I go, but I do entertain in that, in the travel industry, you've got, you know, it's populated by really interesting, funny, um, well traveled people, um, who also like football.
[00:42:59] Irene: Yeah. And, and they're very, you know, they're very kindly to me. I get to see some wonderful places in the world and, um, they're very kindly to my, um, things that I like to do, for example, young people. They have helped me even though they would probably rather be helping seasoned, well experienced travel agencies, but because they know it's a passion of mine, they allow me to take young people on board cruise ships or they'll invite young people to go to their seminars.
[00:43:32] James: Right.
[00:43:32] Irene: So, um, I invite them to my box at the stadium of life.
[00:43:37] James: Sounds a good trade. So I wanna talk to you about Young, 'cause you, you have a, a very big commitment to apprenticeship schemes I do. To supporting young people. You've been doing this for a very long time. Um, it's a passion of yours. I know. Hmm. So how many apprentices do you have in Hayes Travel now
[00:43:53] Irene: at, at the moment?
[00:43:54] Irene: Probably, probably, um, about 800, 900. So we, we have two year apprenticeships mainly. Right. So last year we employed over 600, and this year we've employed 400, but obviously of the 600, some of them, um, there is at attrition in apprenticeships. But no, I've, I've, I've been a, a really big advocate of, um, apprenticeships for the last 40.
[00:44:25] Irene: Two years and starting with YTS for a partic particular reason. I dunno, we've got time for a funny story. We have, we've always got time for a good story. Oh, wow. So we're 40. Yeah. So I was, I had just done, um, a two year, um, management course and I, as part of it at the end, I needed to go and understand how to carry out a disciplinary interview.
[00:44:49] James: Oh, so HR disciplinary interview.
[00:44:50] Irene: Yeah. So there was somebody from the HR department and a supervisor where was this? And me, and it was on a. Cold, wet, windy morning in a Transport depot in Sunderland.
[00:45:04] Frankie: Right.
[00:45:04] Irene: And there was a young man called Gary, who was about to have his contract terminated because he drank too much and he couldn't get up outta bed in the morning.
[00:45:15] Irene: Right. And he was on a YTS training scheme. I'm sure you remember. I do remember those, yeah. And he, we've had someone on the podcast started off on one. Yeah. Came into the interview, uh, room with, um, his line manager, Ted. So anyway, Gary comes in wearing a puffer jacket and chewing gum. And the HR person said, well, Gary, she said, you've had an informal verbal warning.
[00:45:39] Irene: You've had a formal verbal warning. You've had a written warning, uh, you've had a final written warning. And she, she was, it wasn't quite as brief as that, but, and then she said, and today, and Ted said, hang on a minute. Just hang on a minute. He said, have you never had too much to drink? Like, and have you never slept in in the morning when you should have been at work?
[00:46:03] Irene: I'm telling you, this lad has a talent. If you give him one last chance, just one last chance, I'll make sure he turns up in the morning. So anyway, the HR person said, go and sit in the canteen. So off they went in the canteen and we had a con flap. And she said, what do you think Irene? And I said, I love Ted.
[00:46:27] Irene: I absolutely loved Ted. Just let him, let Gary have one more chance. Just let him have another chance. Anyway, the supervisor went, I dunno that it's gonna make a difference. Put a long story short, Gary was given another chance, so they came back in and she to a strip off him. Yeah, I mean she really went to town on him and um, he's like sitting there like a rabbit in the headlights and off he goes with this one last chance.
[00:46:53] Irene: And I bumped into Ted later that week or the week after, and he said, Irene, he said, have you got a minute? He said, I walked around the back of the depot and there was Gary with his head on his arm leaning against it, crying his eyes out. And Ted said, so I went up to him and I said, what's wrong with you?
[00:47:15] Irene: Like, have you never been told off? And Gary turned to him and said. Oh yeah, I've been turned off, torn off plenty, but nobody's ever stuck up for me before. And in the whole of his life, he hadn't had anybody in his corner and I was smitten with white. A yes. And how one intervention has the ability to transform a life.
[00:47:38] Irene: Gary went on to become a super dut mechanic and he actually left and ran the bus bus company depot as the senior, senior mechanic, which is absolutely fantastic in my book. So, uh, since then we've had a long and successful history of apprenticeships and, um, when John died. Um, because I hadn't been as operationally involved in the business as John had, 'cause I'd had my young career.
[00:48:06] Irene: Uh, I invited a young man who had joined us at the age of 16 as an apprentice, and at that point in time had been with us about, out, I want to say 16 years, and asked him if he would become the Chief operating officer and work alongside me. And now prior to Thomas Cook, 43% of our senior managers and leaders started their career as apprenticeships.
[00:48:34] Irene: And just giving young people a second chance, I think is an absolutely fantastic thing to do.
[00:48:42] James: No, that's a great story. I, I love the idea of everyone needs someone in their corner and I think, you know, business people listening, will, will, will, I'm sure be touched by that story and be thinking, how can I do that?
[00:48:55] James: People too. I think it's really important. I mean, you talk about emotional resilience and you, you've said there's a crisis of emotional resilience, I think in Britain at the moment. What's going on? I mean, 'cause this is part of what we're talking about here, isn't it? How can, how can we help people step up, step forward?
[00:49:14] James: Yeah. Get through tough things? Yeah. Like, you know, as business leaders, as people at work.
[00:49:21] Irene: Yeah. I think we do a lot. We do a lot as, as a business. I, I really do think we should do more in school. So in other countries, um, for example, they would do. Work, particularly transitioning age children, you know, going into high school.
[00:49:38] Frankie: Yes.
[00:49:38] Irene: Um, in that area, sometimes going from a small pond to a very big pond. And, um, coping with that, there's clear evidence from the educational attainment results that results plummet when, when they go, well, transitions are difficult, aren't the child. Yeah. Yeah. So I think at transition age, um, and I, I did a lot of work when I worked in local government with, um, Martin Seligman from Penn State University in Philadelphia, who was the father of cognitive behavioral psychology.
[00:50:07] Irene: And he came up with a fantastic program of emotional resilience for. Uh, for young people and, uh, we, um, persuaded all the teachers and, and, um, it was, I was in working in south hindsight at the time to go across to the states and study with Seligman around how to deliver a curriculum around, I mean, there's a horrible American world called de catastrophizing.
[00:50:34] Irene: But if the problem was bad when I was doing that, then 25 years ago with Martin Seligman, it's much worse now because of social media. And I believe that the high level of incidents of mental health and depression is a direct result of, um, not enough training and development around what it means to, um.
[00:51:03] Irene: To have the ability to look and, and to step back and look at the things which are being said, sometimes very easily on social media in a way that people wouldn't dream of doing face-to-face. And I think that, um, the expectations of young people today are much, much higher around their self-image, their body image in a, in a way that just really wa wasn't around 30, 40, 50 years ago.
[00:51:29] Irene: Yet, I don't think school curriculum has moved on sufficiently, um, to, to be helping our young people before they actually reach crisis point. 'cause I think we all know the mental health services are cricking in this country. Um, so I think more could be done in the, in the curriculum. And do you have some specific ideas
[00:51:48] James: or thoughts on that?
[00:51:49] James: What, what, what would you want to see in the curriculum?
[00:51:51] Irene: I would say that, that it should be embedded, that there should be training about how to de catastrophize and. Demonstrate to young people that things are not as bad as they seem, and simply because you don't conform in a certain way, you know, be that gender or the shape you are, or your religion or your sexual, you know, L-G-B-T-Q, it, it's really important that young people know that they'll fit in somewhere.
[00:52:17] Irene: They just need to find the right place. Right. Um, and I think that they need to be taught strategies and tactics around how they cope with things, which are being said or done, and to look at that in a calm and considered way. And then some strategies about what they might do if they feel themselves getting panicked, and then some sensible, uh, sign posting to help.
[00:52:40] Irene: And I, I really do believe if help was introduced at an earlier age, we wouldn't have the problem that we have now.
[00:52:47] James: Yeah, that, that would be a big change, wouldn't it? It sounds like.
[00:52:49] Irene: Well, a good idea to me. Well, it would. I mean, I don't think it'd squeeze out, you know, the things where, you know, people place great store on five A Cs at GCSE or Yeah.
[00:53:01] Irene: You know, well really, if that's all you achieve in your life, I would much rather have a well-rounded individual who was grateful and who was lovely to people. And that's why we recruit apprentices, many of whom, who are unencumbered by qualification.
[00:53:16] James: I like that. Unencumbered by qualification. Absolutely.
[00:53:19] James: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:53:20] Irene: Yeah. And, and we, we take them into his travel and catch them doing things Right.
[00:53:25] James: Right. Well that, I like that as well. Catch people doing things right. So you are definitely in their corner. Yeah. So that's, uh, you, you just touched upon IIII just wanted to ask you briefly, 'cause you did have a stellar secondary career or free primary career.
[00:53:38] James: You were the chief executive of two local authorities. Yeah. Um, south th side and Sunland. Yeah. And you were also a permanent secretary in Central. I worked for a very short period of time. Yeah. In central government. So you, you've worked in the civil service in the public sector. Many years as well as what you've been doing in Hayes Travel.
[00:53:54] James: What, what do you see as similarities and differences here? Because, you know, public service, it matters so much to us. Um, there are lots of people at the moment saying they're unhappy with what's going on in the terms of public service offerings, be it the NHS or other areas. Um, what is, are there lessons that can be taken from business to public service or vice versa in terms of management and leadership to make things happen?
[00:54:18] James: Get things done? In your experience or what, what You're smiling Irene. What I'm thinking. Think, I dunno what, what you're thinking. I'm so much, but what's going on here? Because clearly improvements need to be made.
[00:54:29] Irene: Yeah. I'm thinking this is a whole other podcast, but Oh, maybe
[00:54:32] James: we'll get you back for that.
[00:54:34] James: Yeah. But gimme a quick heads up. If I moment in the
[00:54:35] Irene: main, very briefly. I, I think that, um. Lead leadership is key. It, it doesn't matter whether you're running a white or department, a jam factory, a sausage production, uh, um, or a travel agent. I think the, the quality of the leadership and being as clear as possible about what the aims of the organization are and what is most important and what needs to be done next.
[00:55:05] Irene: I think that sometimes, um, in. Uh, government, there is vastly more ambiguity and complexity than people imagine, and less clarity of what the, the purpose is. And sometimes it's very difficult to distill that down to some nice soundbites the way that perhaps I have.
[00:55:29] Frankie: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:30] Irene: And being, being crystal clear about that, and particularly in any organization in turmoil, which is a change such as we've just had in government, but sometimes even a change in minister would bring about that complexity and ambiguity and, and therefore it isn't as clear cut.
[00:55:49] Irene: I think that that is one significant difference. But, but overall, I, I, I do believe that there are huge overlaps around what equality. Um, organization should look like around good governance, um, good values, um, good, good processes and procedures, and just remembering what you're there for. Sometimes in white hole, I used to think.
[00:56:15] Irene: Do these people like no, that we're not here to serve the civil service. We're here to serve the people in the communities out there. And just bringing that sense of purpose and focus, um, back in a way, which I think is clearer and easier in the private sector. But overall, people are people. There are great, great people in the civil service and local government.
[00:56:38] Irene: Absolutely. I've worked with some fantastically innovative people in public service, um, who maybe just maybe don't have as much opportunity to flourish as the word do who are in the private sector.
[00:56:52] James: Yeah. So it's some organizational design sounds like it's quite important and
[00:56:57] Irene: Yes, but I, I think one is a political environment and that's the main difference.
[00:57:01] Irene: You know, I know some organizations not in public service have got a queer eye political environment, but, but we don't, and in the main, the good businesses. Don't, they are, are focused on doing the right thing in the right way through their, I would say, their people and for their customers and in the communities.
[00:57:24] Irene: And, um, I. Yeah. Don't let politics get in the way.
[00:57:28] James: So business is different in that respect. A good business. It it is. It is. And, and politics is inevitably present in public service. It, it is. And it's 'cause of different ideas about how things should be done. Yeah. And
[00:57:38] Irene: politics are, you know, a good thing, a, a good thing.
[00:57:41] Irene: And I think if you were to take it through, you know, philosophy at the top, then politics, then strategy, then operations, it's very different. So in the main. In, in White Hall. And, um, it's more about the policy and the strategy and they don't get to deliver. So sometimes that, that that gap between the strategic development of a policy and the actual delivery of it is where it goes pear shaped.
[00:58:10] James: That's interesting. And so operations, as you just called it, I mean that's the, that's the nuts and bolts, isn't it? That's right. Getting the job done. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So execution as we'd call it in business,
[00:58:21] Irene: we would, we would. And I, and I think that, that that's has sometimes the difference in that it's not joined up all the way through the system.
[00:58:28] James: Yes.
[00:58:29] Irene: But it's very difficult. That might be
[00:58:30] James: about personal preference about what people are thinking about or discussing.
[00:58:34] Irene: Yes, yes, yes, indeed. But I think, I think politics
[00:58:35] James: attracts one type of person and business. A slightly different type of person
[00:58:40] Irene: in the main Yeah.
[00:58:41] James: But it's in, you are unusual in that you've, you know, operated successfully in both.
[00:58:46] James: So that's why I'm asking these questions. Yes.
[00:58:48] Irene: Well,
[00:58:48] James: so that's interesting insight. Thanks. Yes. Is there anything else you wanna say on that?
[00:58:52] Irene: No, no, no. It's just I think that, uh, that, um, I, I feel as if I had it good when I was chief executive and two local authorities in that the pressures on the, on the National Health Service today have pretty much drained lots of the funding from other primary services.
[00:59:10] Irene: And for me, um, local government particularly should be the things which the people in that community hold dear and the things which they value most when they open the curtains in the morning.
[00:59:23] Frankie: Right.
[00:59:23] Irene: And the ability of public services to deliver that today is vastly reduced from when I was involved. So I think people should be a bit forgiving, right, because of the funding which is being taken out in order that we can support our national health service.
[00:59:38] James: Right. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that thought. So, just as we conclude the conversation, I'm, I'm interested in what your thoughts are about the future for Hayes Travel. What's next for Hayes Travel? What are your, okay, who are you gonna buy next? You probably don't say, okay, what's happening next?
[00:59:54] Irene: Wherever the customer takes this is the answer to that. So it really is that, that customer focused and I'm very excited and that we've got some real opportunities for the future. We have just, um, developed some very strong relationships with some destinations around the world, and my ambition is to be able to teach.
[01:00:18] Irene: And, um, develop all of our people so that they become, uh, helpful in delivering those new destinations to thrive and flourish. That all sounds a bit sort of clouded, but, um, that's, I'm excited about growth. I'm excited. Um, tonight I'm off to celebrate 30 years of our independence group, which are the 122 companies that we provide back office services for.
[01:00:45] Irene: So fantastic. Um, and we will grow that, uh, the number of home workers are, are increasing. Increasingly people want flexibility and they want to be their own boss and they want to work when they want to work and look after their children or care for a loved one when, when they need to. I think that's going to increase and I love working with home workers.
[01:01:08] Irene: I love it. But, but, um. There's, there's, there's lots of exciting things and it's an ever-changing landscape in travel, and I can't wait to see what's next.
[01:01:19] James: Now, I, um, I share your excitement. I've gotta ask you this, this thing. She, I think, where are you gonna go next for your holiday? Where would you choose?
[01:01:26] James: That's my last question. Oh, before my gosh. Okay. Depends who you, with,
[01:01:30] Irene: who you're with and what you're doing. What would you like to do? So, if it's a family, it's a villa and, and I've just, um, taken the family away in May, Tonia. So I do, I like remote places with fantastic food and preferably nice wine, um, which are as unspoiled as possible.
[01:01:46] Irene: But I also like beautiful cities and uh, remote islands. So your
[01:01:51] James: next city break will be where? Irene.
[01:01:53] Irene: Oh, I'm where? Paris. It. Paris, yes. I love Paris, but I mean, there's a reason for that. So it's just a, a quick hop really to remind myself about Paris. But I love, I love cities, so it's not a very clear answer.
[01:02:05] Irene: It depends what mood I'm in, who I'm with. If it's a grandchildren or it be a villa so they can go to bed and you can, um, mix. You just have
[01:02:11] James: too many options 'cause you know all the possibilities. That's, yeah,
[01:02:15] Irene: that's what meant thinking isn't, isn't that. It's hard to
[01:02:17] James: choose when you know what's out there.
[01:02:18] James: So
[01:02:19] Irene: isn't that a fantastic problem to have?
[01:02:21] James: I, I would say it is. So thanks so much for coming to talk to me today. I really enjoyed and being inspired by our conversation. So thanks so much for making the journey from Sunday. Thank you for having
[01:02:31] Irene: me.
[01:02:31] James: I'm gonna ask you two questions, which I always ask at the end, Irena.
[01:02:34] James: Um, the first is. Yeah, because we love Mondays at Reeb. What is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?
[01:02:43] Irene: Um, the, the prospect of being able to, uh, do something positive during the day, even if it is, I know that there are problematic things to do and if they land on my desk, they're gonna be problematic because hay travel has lots of clever people.
[01:03:05] Irene: Um, but I absolutely love going home at night and thinking, well, that was better and I made a bit of a difference there. Or maybe I could have done better here, but I love progress. I like. Uh, moving with Dial, um, with whatever it is I'm doing, whether it's, you know, implementing a new technology or learning about something, I try at night to look back and evaluate, um, the fantastic opportunities I've had and the things that I've hopefully made a positive difference to, and then being truthful about the ones where I haven't.
[01:03:47] James: Yeah. So you do a day of review, that's good. Yeah, but it duck
[01:03:50] Irene: gets me up in the morning. I love, I love, um, striving for change and I love growing businesses, obviously.
[01:03:55] James: Yeah. Yeah. No, well, thank you. And you've clearly done that very successfully. So my last question is, where do you see yourself in five years time?
[01:04:04] Irene: Um, probably doing, uh, more or less the same as I'm doing now, but, um, I think it's really important to step. Back and make sure that the very talented leaders within his travel have the space to, um, know what it feels like. Not to have me around all the time, but I have absolutely no desire to leave the business.
[01:04:35] Irene: Uh, I have absolutely no desire to sell it. Um, and I have lots of desire to see it flourish and thrive into the future.
[01:04:44] James: Well, fantastic. I look forward to following that journey and hopefully catching up with you again sometime in the future. Thanks so much for coming in to talk to me. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.
[01:04:52] James: Thank you. Very good. I think I've probably took you longer than Yeah. Happy with that. So thanks, Irene. I thought it was so interesting
[01:05:01] Irene: what you do. Will you just chop it? Take the boring, yeah. Yeah. Take the boring bit. It wasn't, I don't think any of it
[01:05:06] James: was boring. That's why I went, I mean,
[01:05:08] Frankie: we'll, we'll make it as strong using what we have as possible, but,
[01:05:13] James: and unless there's any bit you want to chop, but I didn't think, I thought it was all excellent.
[01:05:16] James: It was really, really good.
[01:05:18] Frankie: Okay, run it through and then
[01:05:21] James: it feels supportive, motivational, innovative, loyal, and excellent smile. That's the key framework that has led Hayes travel to being the UK's largest independent travel agency with five stars on autopilot. Today's guest is Dame Irene Hayes, who started the company in 1980 with her late husband, John.
[01:05:44] James: They now have 512 stores and 3 billion in turnover, and in 20, I say this in the intro.
[01:05:51] Frankie: Yeah, we can get rid of the turnover
[01:05:56] James: and also he's not alive anymore. Um, I mean
[01:05:58] Frankie: they, as in Hayes travel, not, not those two specifically,
[01:06:06] Frankie: you could say she has.
[01:06:09] James: Um, well, I just said that again in the intro, so, um, I'm just thinking today's guest is Day Mar who started the coming 90 with her hu late husband John. Uh, they were held as heroes of the high street for Same when, when they acquired Tom. Yeah, we just jump straight to that. Yeah, they were held.
[01:06:28] James: I'll take it, make it a bit shorter.
[01:06:56] James: Was it bankrupt? Thomas Cook?
[01:07:01] Frankie: Yeah. They were, weren't they? Yeah.
[01:07:31] James: I will say hundreds of apprentices, I think. 'cause she was, it was a little more complicated than 600, wasn't it? Yeah.
[01:08:03] James: Was it nearly 1 million? That doesn't sound just, should I say investing millions in young people? I mean, she's had lots of apprenticeships.
[01:08:09] Frankie: Millions in young people.
[01:08:10] James: Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's try this. Should I say smile before supportive? Motivational?
[01:08:20] Frankie: Yeah.
[01:08:23] James: Yeah. I might do it that way. Round this. 'cause then it,
[01:08:26] Frankie: yeah.
[01:08:28] James: And I'll try and say it with a smile myself. Alright, I will. Okay. Ready? Steady. Should we go?
[01:08:37] Frankie: Go
[01:08:39] James: smile. Supportive, motivational, innovative, loyal, and excellent. That's the key framework that has led Hayes travel to being the UK's largest independent travel agency with five stars on Trustpilot. Today's guest is Dame Irene Hayes, who started the company in 1980 with her late husband, John.
[01:09:03] James: They were hailed as heroes of the high street for saving over 2,500 jobs with the acquisition of bankrupt Thomas Cook back in 2019. Irene has also founded the Hayes Travel Foundation and built a leading apprenticeship scheme, which employs hundreds of apprentices. Uh, let's start that. Start from that third bit again.
[01:09:24] James: Irene has also co-founded the Hayes Travel Foundation and built a leading apprenticeship scheme, employing hundreds of apprentices and investing millions in young people.
[01:09:35] Frankie: Yeah, that's better.
[01:09:36] James: Is that all right?
[01:09:37] Frankie: Yeah.
[01:09:38] James: Out true. Thank you, Irene, for joining me on all about business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company.
[01:09:48] James: If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Irene and Hayes Travel, all links are in the show notes. See you next time. Is that all right?
[01:09:57] Yeah.
This podcast was co-produced by Reed Global and Flamingo Media. If you’d like to create a chart-topping podcast to elevate your brand, visit https://www.Flamingo-media.co.uk