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In this episode of all about business, James Reed dives into the findings of the latest Reed in Partnership report, ‘Employer attitudes to employing people with criminal convictions.’, and its findings. The report reveals a concerning trend where one-in-five employers would not consider a candidate with a conviction at all, and the willingness to hire individuals with criminal records has dropped sharply across various offences.
James Reed is joined by Alex Head, the Owner and Founder of Social Pantry, the leading hirer of prison leavers in the hospitality sector. She provides practical insight into the successes and challenges of this great work, demonstrating how giving people a second chance can lead to a compelling and persuasive workforce.
04:18 Social Pantry's business model and success
06:14 challenges and support for hiring prison leavers
13:09 the role of charities and probation services
23:39 employment boards and training opportunities
29:58 empathy and communication in the workplace
34:45 challenges and benefits of hiring prison leavers
38:31 addressing employer hesitations
44:06 success stories and future plans
Reed in Partnership’s Employer Attitudes to Hiring People with Criminal Convictions Report: https://reedinpartnership.co.uk/uploads/employer-attitudes-to-employing-people-with-criminal-convictions-sep-25.pdf
Check out Social Pantry’s website: https://socialpantry.co.uk/
Follow Social Pantry on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/social-pantry/
Check out Key4Life’s website: https://key4life.org.uk/
Check out Switchback’s website: https://switchback.org.uk/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
[00:00:01] James: say. Yep. All of our business with Alex, take one. And action. Well today on all About business, I'm truly delighted to welcome Alex Head, who's the CEO and founder of the Social Pantry. Yes. Which is a catering business. I had you go. Yes. And there's a fabulous catering business, um, based here in London.
[00:00:27] James: And one of the things that's very special about it is that you are. Employ lots of prison leavers, Alex, and I'm gonna ask you all about that because our company read in partnership has just pro produced a report, I have it with me, employer Attitudes to employing people with criminal convictions. And we were evaluating how attitudes had changed from when we last did a piece of research in 2013 to now in 2025 and concerningly.
[00:00:56] James: Attitudes have moved against employing prisoners, uh, at prison leavers and people with criminal convictions and one in five employers say they would not consider someone with a conviction at all. So I've asked you here partly to learn about you and your business, Alex, but partly to learn about what it takes to successfully employ prison leavers.
[00:01:18] James: So let's, let's start at the beginning. How did you get going and what do you. Do and Yes. How, how's it going?
[00:01:28] Alex: Perfect. Well, thanks so much for having me. Um, so I started Social Pantry 14 years ago. Um, but prior to that, I, um, when I was young, I was, had a lot of energy. I had been expelled from school and, um, it was over the summer holidays that my mom, um, said, well, you better better start thinking about how you're gonna make some money.
[00:01:47] Alex: Always had a passion for cooking and kind of being in the kitchen. So I actually printed out some clip art posters. I dunno if you remember clip art back in the day. Yes, I certainly do. Yeah. Um, and I put them around my dad's office and then actually people would phone up with their little sandwich order.
[00:02:01] Alex: So I'd make the sandwich, jump on my bike and go and deliver them. And that was a long time ago. And at that point I thought, oh, what, so how
[00:02:08] James: old were you at this point?
[00:02:09] Alex: Probably kind of 15, 16.
[00:02:11] James: So you started out as an entrepreneur, as a teenager.
[00:02:13] Alex: Yes. Yes.
[00:02:14] James: Your school career was checkered.
[00:02:16] Alex: Checkered. Exactly.
[00:02:17] Alex: And,
[00:02:17] James: uh, you got on your bike literally as Norman Tebbit would've said
[00:02:20] Alex: Exactly.
[00:02:21] James: To, uh, find some work.
[00:02:22] Alex: Yeah. And you know, naively at that point I thought, oh, what can be so hard about, you know, you know, the hospitality industry? And now, now I know that it's definitely a challenging industry, but a brilliant one to be in as well.
[00:02:33] James: But you started from selling sandwiches to where you are now, where you employ, I believe,
[00:02:37] Alex: prisoners. Yeah, exactly. A lot of
[00:02:38] James: people though. How many people are,
[00:02:39] Alex: yeah, so we, um, at the moment we've got kind of just, I think just over 85 full-time team members, which is brilliant. Mm-hmm. And there's three pillars to the business.
[00:02:47] Alex: There is our events catering, so where we're on list ats, lots of brilliant venues in London from National Portrait Gallery to Roundhouse Somerset House. And they do all sorts of events from kind of, um, brand concepts to high end weddings, high net worth individuals. Um, and they do about 30 to 40 events a week.
[00:03:03] Alex: So they are a busy team. Um, lots of logistics, brilliant menu planning, and we create, you know, incredible events. Then we've got our BNI arm to the business, which is office catering, so where employers are wanting to kind of pull back their teams into the office. Obviously a way to do that is to provide a brilliant, healthy, nutritious lunch.
[00:03:20] Alex: And that's where social pantry and a number of law firms, tech companies, um, and kind of FinTech companies where the employers are, are as an employee benefit, giving their team lunches. Um, and then we have our standalone site. So, uh, we won Tower Bridge a couple of years ago, so with the exclusive cater at Tower Bridge where, um, lots of, um, kind of corporates and private events get hosted in the two walkways, the glass walkways above Tower Bridge.
[00:03:43] Alex: So it really is stunning. And then we also have mansion house, um, the old Bailey, so central criminal court where we feed the judges every day in the judges' dining room. And we also have a couple of cafes there, one for the jurors. One for the barristers. And then we also, um, have a restaurant and a cafe in Chelsea Design Center as well.
[00:04:01] Alex: So
[00:04:01] James: you're super busy, busy operating a lot. I, I'm, I'm assuming that the prison leavers aren't welcome in the old Bailey. Is that right? I think
[00:04:08] Alex: sadly, I actually don't think they are, do either. Not that they shouldn't be, but I imagine there are rules about Exactly. But we're working on that. We're working on that.
[00:04:14] Alex: Which is good. No, '
[00:04:14] James: cause I remember we employed someone years ago who was a prison leave, and we wanted him to go back into prisons to talk to the young prisoners. About why they maybe should think about changing their ways and, and the rules changed and he wasn't able to do it anymore. Oh, really? He wasn't able to go back in, which seemed a shame.
[00:04:29] James: Yeah, that's because he was extremely, um, persuasive and compelling.
[00:04:33] Alex: Yeah. It's what you need.
[00:04:34] James: So, so, um. Our our data, which is interesting, shows that, as I said, one in five employers would immediately reject candidates with criminal convictions. And then compared to 2013, the willingness to hire people with convictions has dropped sharply.
[00:04:50] James: It says, so in 20 13, 80 8% of employers were prepared to hire people with driving offenses. That's dropped to 41% and in 2013. Fif, no. 62% would hire people with alcohol related offenses. That's dropped to 27% and criminal damage has dropped from 40% to 10%. So there's a real hardening of attitudes it seems, from our research against employing people.
[00:05:19] James: With criminal records or convictions, but we know that it's important to give people a second chance because it means they're less likely to re-offend. It's better for society, it's better for them. And when you commit an offense, I don't think that should mean that you are unemployed for the rest of your life.
[00:05:35] James: I mean, that's, that's for me not right. You have sort of found your own way to doing this. What made you think, I believe it's 10 years now since you started Exactly, exactly. Hiring people. Um, how did that come to your attention? Why did you do it and what did you learn? Yeah,
[00:05:49] Alex: of course. Well, it started really organically, um, and 10 years ago I was, um, volunteering through a charity called Key for Life.
[00:05:56] Alex: And I went into ISIS prison and I met Ruben. Um, and I was incredibly nervous going in and I was just going in as his mentor. So,
[00:06:03] James: so where's this prison? This
[00:06:04] Alex: prison is next to Belmar, so it's a YOI, so Young Offenders Institute, it's called isis. Um, and Ruben had been in there, I think for a GBH offense and he, um, and he had just kind of lost his way and ultimately he had, uh, the charity had.
[00:06:19] Alex: Were working with him behind bars and on release I was his mentor, so I went in to meet him and that was my first ever prison visit. So this
[00:06:25] James: was something you did as a sort of
[00:06:26] Alex: Exactly, yeah. Just extracurricular thing. Yeah, exactly. Um, and we kind of, you know, I was definitely kind of, you know, a bit apprehensive, going in nervous.
[00:06:34] Alex: Um, but on meeting Reuben actually that kind of dissipated. We, you know, we chatted, we bonded over giving up smoking and, and you know, a few little things that we kind of had in common and on, on release. Actually, we kind of, you know, I then was his mentor, so I'd meet him for a coffee and, you know, help him with a few things.
[00:06:50] James: Is, is that a scheme that people can sign up to become a mentor of someone on unreleased? Is that Yeah, they
[00:06:54] Alex: can definitely through the charity key for life, and I'm sure there's key for life. For life. Anyone's listening for life would do that. Yeah, exactly. They're brilliant. So that's how I got into it.
[00:07:01] Alex: And then actually at the time, um, the founder of Key for Life asked me if I'd employ one of the other, um, gentlemen that had been released. So at that time I had eight employees and I got them all in a room and I said, Hey guys, how'd you feel about working alongside a prison leave? And they, um, were up for it.
[00:07:14] Alex: So Sue Hale started and he was quite, at first, he wasn't that reliable. Um, and I sat down with him after. When
[00:07:22] James: you say wasn't that reliable, what do you mean? So
[00:07:23] Alex: he was working as a kitchen porter and he just, it, yeah, he, he wouldn't turn up for every shift, which was, you know, which we obviously, you know, couldn't kind of maintain that kind of employment.
[00:07:32] Alex: A, we're a small company and everybody had to pull their weight, but b, I couldn't afford to pay somebody that, that wasn't there or pay somebody twice. So I kind of said to him, look, this is your opportunity. Either get on board and make the most of it, or don't, you know, then you lose, you know. I kind of was, you know, probably quite, you know, quite straight down.
[00:07:47] Alex: You were direct with him? Yeah, exactly. And actually he kind of went away and had a think and then he came back five days a week and, and loved it. And it kind of all went from there. And he, he stayed with me for three or four years. So he was a brilliant, you know, he was my first prison leaver to employ and, you know, we learnt lots as an employer over that, you know, over that journey.
[00:08:04] Alex: But he, he was a great success.
[00:08:06] James: It's interesting that you asked the others first.
[00:08:08] Alex: Yes. I think there's something. Um, I think it's, yeah, I mean, obviously employment prison, it is a USP of social Pantries. Um, having done it now for a decade, we're definitely, um, quite forward thinking with it. And we have, you know, we have kind of led the way, um, which is really exciting.
[00:08:24] Alex: But I think it, it is important, you know, everybody starting Social Pantry often they cite it as why they want to join Social Pantry in an interview. But, you know, it's, it's common knowledge that you would be working alongside somebody that has. You know, has spent time in prison for a conviction or, but when, when you
[00:08:38] James: first did it, you consulted the team?
[00:08:39] Alex: Yeah, totally. 'cause it was a small team and, and ultimately I wanted them to feel comfortable with it as well. Like I was completely comfortable with offering an opportunity for me. If probation and the prison server, if they've done their time, um, and the probation is saying these, this person's gonna be released, why wouldn't we offer an opportunity?
[00:08:56] Alex: I also think in the industry, um. We, we've got, you know, we've got very low barriers to entry in the hospitality industry. So, for example, they could come having had no kitchen experience and they'll start as, you know, maybe within our logistics team or as, as a kitchen porter. Or if they've had some cooking experience, they, they, they might then start as one of, you know, one of the chefs.
[00:09:14] Alex: But, you know, we can onboard pretty much anybody within the industry. So for me, um, I suppose it felt like a really good opportunity. And a lot of them are, you know, they're charismatic, they've got transferable skills. They're, you know, they can work hard. They're driven. So why wouldn't I look at that? You know, look at the opportunities that come with employing people that have got convictions.
[00:09:34] James: Are there, are there certain convictions you will not entertain? I'm just thinking in terms of what other people might,
[00:09:39] Alex: yes. Yeah. So for us, um, yeah, so we wouldn't have anybody with kind of a sex offense. Um, that's just something that I'm personally not comfortable with. And that wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't expect anybody else to be comfortable with that.
[00:09:50] Alex: But, you know, other than that, um, and then we have, we have kind of said no in the past when it, when it hasn't quite worked for us or when potentially that kind of first interview hasn't gone well. But, but other than that, yeah. They're pretty sure. So
[00:10:01] James: do the prisons work? So there's a lot here that you've said that I think might be interesting to someone maybe contemplating doing this or wondering, wondering whether it's for them or their business.
[00:10:11] James: I mean the, the first is the relationship with the probation service and the prison. Yes. So do you go into the prison to interview people first? Yes. Before they release. And how does that work? How do that, so now having
[00:10:21] Alex: done it for a decade, I'm now in touch with a number of prisons and a number of kind of employment boards and prison that, you know, I've got enough contacts that they will fail me.
[00:10:27] Alex: And so I've got somebody coming out and I think they'd be great for social pantry, but So they're
[00:10:31] James: thinking about you before? Yes. And that might be, 'cause
[00:10:33] Alex: we've gone in and done an employment session behind bars or we've worked with the prison before, or I can of know them. There's a relationship there, so.
[00:10:41] Alex: But for somebody looking to do it, I would definitely partner with a charity. I think that's what really helped me back in the day is kind of, it then means you've kind of got a triangle of support. So you've got your, the charity, the employer, and you've potentially got the, the probation. And if you're lucky enough, then you've maybe got their family as well.
[00:10:55] Alex: So if it's a potentially, you know, a younger person coming out and then moving back with their family, then actually you've got a lot of touch. You know, you've got some support with it and the charities often will support you as an employer. So they might kind of. Bringing 'em on their first day to work, which, which might be needed.
[00:11:08] Alex: They might meet them at the gate and organize for them to go into work the next day. So there's not too much of a lag period in between. But ultimately you've also got somebody to phone and say, oh, I'm, we've run into a bit of, you know, if, if there are any problems, you know, how should I approach this or, or what should I do next?
[00:11:22] Alex: Next? Or help as an intermediary maybe. Yeah. It gives that, it just gives you that, I suppose it gave me a bit of confidence actually knowing that I had a, a, a brilliant charity there to lean on and ask any questions.
[00:11:30] James: So what, what charities are particularly prominent in this? Space in this work Yeah. For people to contact.
[00:11:35] James: So
[00:11:35] Alex: Key for life. Were, were, were brilliant for us. We've also got a charity called Switchback who are very good. So I think, I think they're good. And then I suppose it's also, yeah, I mean I suppose it's probably working out what charity's local. I think ultimately for us, when the prison leavers, um. I suppose to, to kind of, you know, for us it works well when they commut and when they live locally.
[00:11:56] Alex: So potentially kind of local charities and local prisons to where the business is based is definitely what I'd encourage people to kind of, um, to explore.
[00:12:04] James: So keep it as close as possible. Yeah, I think
[00:12:06] Alex: so. I think any employee, um, you know, prison leave or not like a manageable commute's really important.
[00:12:11] Alex: It also means that their probation service might be closer when
[00:12:14] James: someone leaves prison. I, I believe they're giving us some of money. Do you know how much it is?
[00:12:18] Alex: I actually don't.
[00:12:19] James: You don't. I I don't think it's very much. Yeah. I don't think it's very much. But do you have this issue where someone's leave their prison?
[00:12:25] James: How quickly do they need to be paid? I'm just thinking. Yeah. So you've got a monthly payroll. Of course. Yeah. There's lots of different things. Really. Some things you can do to mitigate that. Have, yeah. And there's
[00:12:35] Alex: lots of support that you, you potentially do need to put in place some prison leavers. Um, have somewhere to live, have a family to go back to.
[00:12:42] Alex: Start and they're completely off. And actually some do need a bit more support. So really as an employee, you've got to be understanding that they're coming out and they, that may be facing more challenges than, you know, your general employee. I think housing can be, can be a bit tricky. Um, so kind of, you know, ensuring that they've got housing is really, will, will also play into the success of the employment.
[00:13:01] Alex: The other, the other factor is probation. Ideally you want their probation kind of curfews or meetings to not be in the middle of the day. There's been a number of points where I've had to phone a probation office and say, actually, can we move this person? It's lunchtime. Exactly. Probation meeting to the end of the day.
[00:13:15] Alex: Um, so really, you know, that that can be helpful. But also they might not have a bank account. Um. They might also not know how to kind of travel, you know, that commute might be a little bit challenging. So in the past, one of my team members has kind of done that commute with one of the prison leavers to make them feel confident.
[00:13:31] Alex: Um, but yes, there's definitely kind of, um, you know, well if you don't
[00:13:33] James: have a phone or a bank account, it's quite hard to commute, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:13:36] Alex: It's, it's, it's really challenging. So Yeah.
[00:13:39] James: Do that these days. It's true. Yeah. So you, you, you mentioned that, you know, sometimes you'll meet a prisoner or ex-prisoner and decide that person's not for you.
[00:13:49] James: What do you look for when, I mean, do, what's your process? Do you interview everybody or do you do give them some other forms of assessment? How, how do you decide this one's for us? This one, maybe not.
[00:13:58] Alex: So ultimately we, we got a brilliant, um, Liam heads up all of our hr, he's our people director and he's fantastic.
[00:14:04] Alex: And before, prior to that was Sylvia who was great. So we kind of, I suppose for us, yeah, it's about meeting them. It's about whether we have a role that we feel is suitable. It's about whether. We, um, have got some, you know, kind of good management, um, and good kind of structure within the kitchen or, or no, that's about they're going into, what is
[00:14:21] James: it about them that you, so
[00:14:22] Alex: for them, yes, I want 'em to be determined.
[00:14:24] Alex: I want kind of determine how do you, I want them to want it. How do
[00:14:27] James: you test that?
[00:14:27] Alex: So really by getting them to start, and that's what the challenge is. I see. So you have to kind of just offer the opportunity. So for me, I'll often have gone into a prison, met with a couple of, you know, of, of the guys behind bars and said, when you leave, come and see me and I'll give you a job.
[00:14:41] Alex: It can be as straightforward as that. So it's like
[00:14:43] James: a two week trial or something?
[00:14:44] Alex: Yes. Yeah. It's always paid. They might do a work taste. There's a three day work taster that you can do. Um, and that's through the key for life charity. They'll often send us people on work tasters. So that's, if you've come outta prison, you might do a work taster with us in the hospitality industry and you might do it in a couple of other industries.
[00:14:58] Alex: So it gives you a bit of a taste of what's good idea, what the industry would be. Idea. Yeah. And that they're really successful. But ultimately, um, they just, for me, they just have to be determined and able to work hard. When I kind have started this, you know, I, I don't think you need o you don't need any qualifications really to start, are looking, are people
[00:15:13] James: skills.
[00:15:14] James: 'cause I mean, a lot of hospitality involves. Dealing with people. Yes.
[00:15:17] Alex: Yeah. They have to be able to kind of listen, they have to be able to conduct themselves in a kitchen and they have to be personable enough to work within a team. But, um, it's also, we can upskill them. We, you know, we do, it's great if they've got some experience and they've worked in the prison kitchens or they've worked in the prison cafes, but having ex.
[00:15:31] Alex: Experience. Uh, yeah, but that isn't essential. We can also pop them in as a KP and they get kind of, they also get a mentor internally at Social Pantry, which helps. But yeah, I suppose. Oh, so
[00:15:40] James: you give each person
[00:15:42] Alex: a mentor? Yeah, we give them a mentor and I'm interestingly a mentor in a different department so that they've kind of just got a buddy in the business that isn't.
[00:15:46] Alex: And would,
[00:15:46] James: would that be another prison leaver or non prison? No, that
[00:15:49] Alex: won't be a prison. Leave that. Right. That'll be somebody else who, um, and effectively they take them for a coffee every month and just say, how you doing? How are you finding it all? And then you've obviously got the HR support, which is, have you got any
[00:15:59] James: people who've joined as prison leavers now in sort of leadership roles or senior management or,
[00:16:03] Alex: um, no, not, not at the moment, no.
[00:16:06] Alex: No, none. And I think I'm often asked about a kind of how, what's the success of a prison leave, but really it's down, like, it's it's case by case for some of them. Um, you know, staying a couple of years is absolutely brilliant and that, that's a real success, obviously. That's fantastic. And they, you know, if they go off to another, you know, employer within the industry, they're brilliant.
[00:16:23] Alex: They've learnt, you know, they love the industry. They've, you know, had an opportunity they wouldn't have had previously. But also for some of them just kind of, I suppose, you know. Coming for a three day work case is a real, a real success. So it, it really depends. Um, and it can, it can depend on kind of, you know, the challenges that they face, um, in their home life as well.
[00:16:42] Alex: But, but yeah. Success story totally varies.
[00:16:45] James: I mean, every person obviously is different, but what sort of issues have you encountered where, where it's been less than straightforward and Yeah. I think housing's probably
[00:16:52] Alex: the biggest one. I think, I think that definitely can be a challenge. How does that affect you though?
[00:16:57] Alex: What, so ultimately, if they haven't got anywhere to live, then it's really hard. The chances of prison leave or non prison leave kind of committing to a role and, and giving their role and being really focused, um, is, is gonna be really challenging. If they're kind of sofa surfing or staying with friends and, and, and, or don't, don't, you know, if effectively they haven't got anywhere to live, then that's, then that's obviously quite challenging.
[00:17:17] James: So it's really important that that goes hand in hand.
[00:17:19] Alex: Yeah. Really. You need housing. Housing and probation and work. Yeah, exactly. I sit on the and
[00:17:23] James: and the support for that. Is there for prison there,
[00:17:25] Alex: there, there is, but it's, if, if an employer can kind of, you know, support, then obviously, obviously that's great.
[00:17:31] Alex: And in the past we have had to kind of support, but there is, there are services in place, it can just be quite slow. Um, I sit on the board of Onesworth Prison on the employment board, um, which is brilliant. And actually housing is often cited as as, as one of the challenges. Um, so I, I think it's
[00:17:46] James: Have you had any conduct issues you've had to deal with inside the business?
[00:17:50] Alex: Uh, inside the business? No. Nothing that, nothing's that, that's other than kind of, you know, other than Exactly. They should show up, up for you. Sure. Yeah, exactly. So
[00:17:58] James: you haven't had any issues with theft or No.
[00:18:01] Alex: No
[00:18:02] James: disputes or fights? No, I'm asking this 'cause I think it's important that we understand this business owner.
[00:18:06] James: Yeah.
[00:18:07] Alex: I think, well you have to place your chapter what the issues are and
[00:18:09] James: it sounds like it's been Yeah,
[00:18:11] Alex: yeah. I mean ultimately they, they, they do need the additional support as I, as I said, with kind of that, you know, potentially the admin side of it, of helping, you know, a letter for the bank or an employment letter to prove for housing, but really.
[00:18:22] Alex: You have to trust them. Like they've come quite a long journey since they've come outta prison. Like it's, you know, they, they would, I suppose, yeah, it's often that I'm asked like, you know, do I trust them? And, and you have to that, you know, it would be for them to kind of go back and land themselves back in prison as.
[00:18:39] Alex: Is, have any
[00:18:39] James: of them ended up back in prison? Uh, yeah.
[00:18:41] Alex: One, one has, um, for driving offense. Um, but yes, but, but over the email, were those
[00:18:46] James: working for you at the time? No. No. So, but, so, so it's a pretty small number then.
[00:18:50] Alex: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So you've had a very high success rate of stopping reoffend. I genuinely think, like with some of these.
[00:18:56] Alex: With some of the guys that I've met, the guys and girls I've met, they off. They off. If we hadn't offered them the opportunity, they genuinely wouldn't have had one. So I think we, you know, we really have made a difference. And I can say that kind of quite passionately, but it's so important just to offer them the opportunity and then it's there to roll with and run with and be brilliant with, or it's there to lose.
[00:19:12] Alex: And that's like anybody that you employ, you know, here are the tools we're gonna give you what we can, we're gonna, you know, I also like any. Employee, I suppose you have to kind of keep it interesting. So if they start as a kitchen portal, we do try and move them out of their role quite quickly. They all start on London living wage, but it's trying to kind of promote them quite quickly within definitely kind of improves retention.
[00:19:33] Alex: Um, otherwise they can't, you know, they can get a little bit bored and it's a tough industry to be in if you're kind of pot washing. Well, there's
[00:19:39] James: quite high turnover in hospitality and catering. Exactly, exactly. So traditionally,
[00:19:43] Alex: yeah, me and my, yeah. Liam actually were chatting the other day about what, with one of our prison leavers who actually he cut, he, he started on rot, which.
[00:19:51] Alex: Released on temporary license where he would come from prison every day. So we worked with a prison and that's towards the end of his sentence. He'd be released every day to come and do his job and then go back
[00:19:59] James: released on temporary license. Yes. So that's a good way to test someone out and test the Exactly.
[00:20:03] Alex: Exactly. So it's really successful and the ROT candidates we've have have been brilliant. Um, he's now fully released and actually we've just moved him, um, within our kitchens. He's just moved to another kitchen just to keep it exciting and varied and keep him engaged. So we work kind of hard to, to, to give them every fighting chance.
[00:20:18] James: So our report talks about employing people with criminal convictions. Your language is, is slightly different 'cause you are talking about prison leavers. Yes. Could you just explain what your thinking is here and how that's different? Of
[00:20:29] Alex: course, of course. So Onesworth is a prison that we work with and they are a remand prison.
[00:20:34] Alex: So a lot of, uh, yes. So. For example, somebody could be on remand at Onesworth Prison and then be released, but they've actually gone to trial and been found not guilty. So they are leaving prison rather than being an ex-offender. Right. So we kind of, uh, you know,
[00:20:48] James: but they, they, they have many of the same challenges Yes.
[00:20:51] James: As an ex-offender.
[00:20:51] Alex: Yeah. I mean, yes. Ultimately they've, they've spent time in prison, so they've lost their job. Um, they've potentially lost housing. They've lost any support. They've had time away from their family, so, yeah. If, you know, spending any length of time in, in prison definitely presents as challeng.
[00:21:05] Alex: And you also
[00:21:05] James: mentioned that you were on the employment board at one. Yes. What, what is an employment board in a prison and how do people get involved with that if they're interested?
[00:21:13] Alex: Yeah, so I, the, um, so yeah, the employment board, so sitting on the board is a number of, um, kind of key key employees at the prison.
[00:21:20] Alex: Um, and then there are some other, other business owners like myself or kind of business leaders. So we've kind of got, I'm obviously representing the hospitality industry and then there's a construction company. Um. And we, and these
[00:21:31] James: are all from the local area, aren't they? Yes.
[00:21:33] Alex: Yeah, they are actually. And they, and, and they're brilliant.
[00:21:35] Alex: Ultimately, we will try and work out how we can kind of, um, make prisoners aware when they come into their journey at Wandsworth that there, there is opportunity, there's kind of training within the prison and on release. There is opportunity and support there. So it might be that there's. Employment workshops that we'd want to get them involved in.
[00:21:53] Alex: We also will support by reaching out to other businesses to see if they've got opportunity to employ, or, I mean, they recently had like PWC went in and did an employment day. We might kind of run like a CV writing workshop, but we are there just to kind of support and advise, connect. Um,
[00:22:07] James: what, what are the, what are the skills they can learn.
[00:22:10] James: You said there was some training opportunities?
[00:22:11] Alex: Yes. Yeah. Oh gosh. I'm a bit rusty on this days. Um, so yeah, ultimately, um, yeah, so there's interview techniques, which is really important. There's CV training. Um, and for of, for some of them they kind of, you know, haven't potentially ever had a job, job interview or ever, haven't ever kind of written a cv.
[00:22:28] Alex: Um, but it's also finding out what they're passionate about. I know that there's computing as well. Yeah. And then there's obviously kind of Barbara Radio, there's the prison. So,
[00:22:36] James: so these employment boards exist in multiple prisons. I understand. So, yes. So other. People in other parts of the country could get involved.
[00:22:44] James: Yes. Yes.
[00:22:44] Alex: Um, and I think I could be wrong, but, um, James Timson was kind of heading up the employment board and his, it's now in a number of prisons. I need to kinda check this out, but I think he started it. He's now obviously an mp. Um. Oh, he's a,
[00:22:58] James: he's the prison's minister.
[00:22:59] Alex: Prison's minister. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:23:01] Alex: So, yeah, so he, so he,
[00:23:03] James: he should be all over that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:04] Alex: So I think now there's a number of employment boards and hopefully it's kind of connecting and supporting, also linking in the charities. Supporting the charities with the prison,
[00:23:11] James: because it's interesting to me what your journey was, sort of meeting someone.
[00:23:15] Alex: Yeah. Someone
[00:23:15] James: else being suggested to you and, and it's when you meet people that you,
[00:23:18] Alex: yeah.
[00:23:18] James: Maybe some of these sort of, uh, barriers start to
[00:23:21] Alex: totally break down. I honestly would challenge, um, people that were kind of, you know, with your staff. I challenged the people that were saying no, that one in five employers, I would challenge 'em to come in and come to prison and meet some of these, you know, some, some of these, in some cases, incredibly young men and actually not, not, not want to offer them an opportunity on release.
[00:23:39] Alex: Like for some of them it's, um, yeah, it's definitely been like a challenging start to life and it's inevitable that they potentially would end up in prison. So, um, it's quite,
[00:23:49] James: so it's really important to be given a second or even third chance. I, I think. Yeah. Everyone has that. Yes, right. I believe.
[00:23:56] Frankie: Yeah. So, yeah.
[00:23:57] Frankie: So that's what,
[00:23:58] James: and and yeah, just come and come and come and see is a really good sort of message.
[00:24:02] Alex: Yeah, definitely. Because, because you'll be
[00:24:04] James: surprised I, I think is what you're saying. Yeah, completely. And actually you
[00:24:07] Alex: might, and, and, and lots of them are charismatic, like, you know, some of them are, you know, they're brilliant, you know, some of them have got kind of brilliant personalities, which work in some roles.
[00:24:14] Alex: You know, some of them are incr, you know, incredibly skilled, whether it comes to cooking or, you know, o other industries, like, you know, these people have got skills and they're transferable skills that could, well, could well work within, within businesses on the outside. So, yeah,
[00:24:27] James: I'm just looking at the, the report here.
[00:24:29] James: Um, percentage of employers who have had representatives do one of the following, only 22% have visited a prison.
[00:24:37] Frankie: There you go. Okay. So
[00:24:39] James: four out of five really have not visited a prison. Um, been to a prison event or open day, just 12%.
[00:24:46] Alex: There we go. Okay,
[00:24:47] James: so this is really suggesting that you are onto something here.
[00:24:50] James: Work with a probation officer. To support resettlement 19%.
[00:24:55] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:24:56] James: So there's a lot more that could be done just by being a little bit more curious.
[00:24:59] Alex: Yes. Yeah. There's a brilliant, brilliant charity called Only a Pavement Away, um, who do fantastic work with kind of, obviously the homeless, but also prison leavers.
[00:25:08] Alex: They're, they're an incredible charity, but, you know, they're kind of, um, mantra that we're all only one pavement away from actually being on the wrong side of, you know, the wrong side of it. And I think wh when you. Yeah, we, yeah, I think when you kind of, you know, realize that actually offering opportunity prevents re-offending and prevents, you know, if they have made, you know, if they have kind of done their time behind bars, you actually want to prevent it being really impactful for the rest of their lives.
[00:25:31] Alex: I, why wouldn't we offer opportunity just to kind of stop the, stop the cycle, but I, I, I do think it's. It's in, it's really challenging for them to find work and, and I feel like yeah, businesses of any size, if we can do it as a small business, um, you know, with, with tight margins and limited HR resource, then, then the bigger businesses definitely can.
[00:25:51] James: So, so to, to get that right. You, I, I'm listening. I'm, I'm hearing you give these people a mentor. Yes. You give them a trial. Yes, exactly. So if it's right for you. Right for them. Are there any other key things that people need to think about? Yes.
[00:26:04] Alex: I think you need to have the understanding that, um. That. Yes.
[00:26:08] Alex: I mean, I suppose for us, we're, we're, yeah, we might for some of them that they start and they, they, they crack on and that there's no issues. But if somebody potentially hasn't come in for kind of a day or two, rather than kind of saying, you know, where on earth were you? It's like, do you know what great, what I'm for?
[00:26:23] Alex: Coming back? Do you wanna kind of. You know, not really.
[00:26:25] James: That's what you're saying.
[00:26:26] Alex: Definitely.
[00:26:27] James: Because not where the hell are you been? No, because otherwise I didn't take my management style
[00:26:32] Alex: because I've learned you
[00:26:33] James: world time for coming back. I like that. You've got
[00:26:35] Alex: a really, because I've got no understanding of what it's like to, you know, or what they're, what they're battling and a lot of them have.
[00:26:40] Alex: Got, you know, they, they come out and they, you know, they've got family pressures. They might have a number of children and actually them adjusting back in, they might well have been battling quite a bit actually. And, and, and actually kind of real them realizing that you are on their side. I'm not probation, I'm, I'm not, you know, I, I'm there to kind of support and help and if they're gonna be brilliant and do a good job, then I will support.
[00:26:59] Alex: So I think there's the expectation of. I suppose you have to just, you know, maybe that gentle approach, you know it, do they look a bit surprised
[00:27:06] James: when you say that? That's an old lag being so well done for coming back, but they, I mean, not a lot.
[00:27:12] Alex: I think it's just being like a caring, considerate employer that you kind of, you're taking the time to be like, you know what, you know, do you, you know, can you tell us exactly why you didn't come in?
[00:27:19] Alex: And often they're, it's really valid reasons that, so they'll tell you that are sensible. Yes. Yeah.
[00:27:24] James: And does, does that improve over time you find Yes, exactly. Yeah. Things settle down and they sort of get into a routine. They Routine do. Yeah, they do. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so, so that sort of understanding is really, that's the third element.
[00:27:37] Alex: And I feel like if I was an employee, I would, and I was coming into you, I would rather being shouted at for while I wasn't there. I'd want a. To say like, actually, do you know what, this is a bit more than I thought it would be, or this, you know, it's just having that slight bit of empathy. So I think that, that, that's important.
[00:27:52] Alex: Um, yeah, I think shouting at anyone's never a good idea. That's only gonna get the words. No, it's not, but it's,
[00:27:57] James: but kitchens are notoriously, uh, yeah. It's about to say
[00:28:00] Alex: we have like
[00:28:00] James: sharp elbowed places. No,
[00:28:02] Alex: I've worked in some really tough kitchens before I started social pantry and um, we have really like.
[00:28:07] Alex: We call them kind of non shouty kitchens, but they're very calm. We've got ab you know, you have
[00:28:12] James: non, non, you call them non shouty? Yeah, non,
[00:28:14] Alex: like, there's no kind of egos in there. Like it's, it's really calm, you know, our events kitchen, they're know churning out 40 events a week, you know, that's pretty serious business.
[00:28:21] Alex: So it's kind of how do you achieve
[00:28:22] James: that?
[00:28:23] Alex: Um, with some, uh, an incredible exec chef who's incredibly experienced and intelligent. Um, a brilliant team, good communication, you know, and, and it's organized and it's, and it's a great place to work. And we've got, you know, female led kit, you know, inev like we have actually without intentionally, we've got, you know, one, one of our main kitchens is female led, so, you know, it's really calm.
[00:28:44] Alex: How many,
[00:28:44] James: how many main kitchens.
[00:28:45] Alex: Oh, we've maybe, I've, maybe So
[00:28:47] James: it's not a female led thing that makes it non shouty?
[00:28:49] Alex: No, but it's also, you know, it's, it's, it's great that, you know, it does potentially, you know, it leads to quite a car calm environment. But yeah, we've maybe got six or seven kitchens right.
[00:28:58] Alex: Um, with diff different numbers of. Of team members in each, but Yeah. But you've,
[00:29:02] James: you've obviously set the tone from the top Yeah. As the founder. Yeah. I definitely, this is how you want it to be. Yeah. I mean, you've said that clearly.
[00:29:09] Alex: Yeah. And I've worked in some kitchens where I was, so it was horrendous going to work.
[00:29:13] Alex: It was terrifying being 18 and going to work in these Yeah. Pretty scary environments. Just chefing and it, yeah, it was, it was intense and I, you know, it was, that's
[00:29:22] James: how you learn.
[00:29:22] Alex: Learn how not to do it. Yeah. It was how not to
[00:29:25] James: do it.
[00:29:25] Alex: Yeah. It was, it was horrible. And actually, so for us it's, it's making sure that we are really approachable and that people can ask the right questions.
[00:29:31] Alex: And if, you know the, the. The line managers understand. We've also done a fair bit of training with our team on how to manage a prison leave as well. Um, but often the mentor and their line manager will meet the employee behind bars if we can. So that's quite, quite a nice, but you're
[00:29:46] James: super busy and you've got a big, you know, a whole lot of events.
[00:29:48] James: You've gotta prepare everything.
[00:29:49] Alex: Yeah. And
[00:29:50] James: someone doesn't show up. That's annoying, isn't it?
[00:29:52] Alex: Yes. And we we're quite no nonsense with it. So we can be empathetic. Well, you say, you say, thanks for
[00:29:55] James: coming back, but I mean, how many times do you have to say.
[00:29:58] Alex: So we, um, what we do is we allocate, it's called a charity place at Social Pantry.
[00:30:02] Alex: We have our core, our core rotor, and then in addition to the charity places. So if you were leaving prison, you would slot into one of my charity places. Ah. Which means you're in addition to budget. So we Salary. Salary. So, so you don't, it's not gonna sink shit. Exactly. I'm not gonna be working in five hours later that evening.
[00:30:17] Alex: 'cause you haven't shown up yet. 'cause that would annoy I learned that by trial and error. No, no, that's important. That's what I learned. So that's important to stress.
[00:30:23] James: So you create a bit of extra capacity. Exactly.
[00:30:25] Alex: Because ultimately the team can't be, you know, it can't be the team. But doesn't that add to your cost?
[00:30:29] Alex: Yes, it does. Yeah. And that's why it's, that's why it's great to get, you know, but you are
[00:30:33] James: doing this, the goodwill there, really. Yeah,
[00:30:36] Alex: exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So we create three charity places, um, right. And, and then I suppose it, yeah, sometimes they'll slot into a rotor roll within three months or maybe six months.
[00:30:45] Alex: But once they've shown that they're reliable. And
[00:30:47] James: so what, so the charity places for a defined period of time. Yes. It just as a fine, fine budget ultimately that we
[00:30:52] Alex: kind of, yeah. Will allow, 'cause we don't want the team to be affected by, by anyone that potentially looks like they're gonna be brilliant and then isn't.
[00:30:59] James: Well that, that sort of takes the tension out of it, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. In a way.
[00:31:02] Alex: Exactly.
[00:31:03] James: Because the others can be supportive rather.
[00:31:06] Alex: Yeah. Rather than, yeah,
[00:31:08] James: having to carry the burden. Someone coming. Yeah. And then sensible
[00:31:10] Alex: mentors as well, internally as well.
[00:31:12] James: Yeah, that's really, that's really helpful.
[00:31:15] James: 'cause there's a number of things there that I think if applied together make it much more likely that this will be a successful experience.
[00:31:23] Alex: Yes. And I think, don't be scared of it. Like ultimately meet the person, you know, under, you know, understand. You know, I suppose the challenges with it speak to other employers like, like, you know, like us at Social Pantry, link into a charity and they'll most likely be linked to a charity anyway when they're coming out.
[00:31:38] Alex: Understand their probation or if they're on tag. And, um, and then, you know, so if they're on
[00:31:42] James: tag Yes. Means
[00:31:44] Alex: one time I was, uh, we had a staff party. One of the boys was like, I have to go. And I said, is it 'cause you're on tag? And he said, no, it's 'cause his party's really dull. And I thought, oh. Oh, that's when I knew I had to allocate more budgets.
[00:31:59] Alex: I was like, oh, okay. Tell it
[00:32:00] James: straightforward. Allocate more budget. So they'll tell you straight.
[00:32:03] Alex: Yeah. So you can tell that can, so
[00:32:06] James: when you say you tag, you mean he's tagged with a Yeah.
[00:32:08] Alex: They've got a curfew or a Yeah. They've got, they've be a home a certain time. Need to be area Yeah, exactly. In home. So, um, yeah, and, and I think just en en enjoy and enjoy the, the diversity within your team.
[00:32:17] Alex: Um, and you, you know, you'll know, I suppose like most employments, you'll know employment, you'll know if it's gonna work out quite quickly.
[00:32:24] James: So you've been doing this for 10 years, would you say it's improved your business?
[00:32:28] Alex: Definitely. I think initially how,
[00:32:29] James: how has it helped?
[00:32:30] Alex: Well, initially I wouldn't mention it to anybody because we were just trying to win business and you know, in a competitive market we were just trying to create, I was just trying to create a brilliant hospitality company and now actually I'm really proud that it's one of our USPS and it contributed to our B Corp.
[00:32:43] Alex: It's definitely something. So your B Corp. We're B Corp. It's definitely something that we put front and center when we do tenders so fantastic that our tenders, you know, if the old Bailey or Mansion house, you know, they're Gov government run tenders, that we would've absolutely put that USP, you know, you know, up there with, with, with the other important selling points.
[00:33:00] Alex: And, um, it's great that people are kind of open. You know, they see it as a value for sure. So it's helped you win business? It has, yeah. In the last few years. So you grow your business, the, yeah, definitely. It's not been the only reason, but it, but it, but it has helped and actually that's just turned out.
[00:33:12] Alex: Yeah. I didn't embark on that mission because of that. I just did it because I thought it was, no, I'm not suggesting you did. No, no, no. But as in, it's quite a nice ROI basically, but it's
[00:33:21] James: worth people understanding. Yeah. It's been net positive.
[00:33:25] Alex: Yeah, definitely. It's definitely been positive.
[00:33:27] James: It's not just been a bit of sort of ESG on the side or
[00:33:30] Alex: No, no.
[00:33:31] Alex: And the, and, and most of the team who, that if you join social French, you'll go and visit a prison within a year of being with us. Um, and they find that really everyone who works with you Yeah. They find that really eyeopening. So, and then they enjoy being a mentor. What do
[00:33:43] James: they say about that?
[00:33:45] Alex: I, um, so the last time I took some of our event planners, so they, these girls obviously kind of plan incredibly high-end events and brilliant events.
[00:33:52] Alex: High
[00:33:52] James: well, so weddings and parties. Yeah, exactly. Um,
[00:33:55] Alex: and in some incredible London venues. And then for them to be kind of, I took them to Felton Prison. We used to, we ran as a young
[00:34:01] James: offenders.
[00:34:02] Alex: Yeah. So we ran a cafe there for a year. So one of my right. We put in, we paid the salary of a team member behind bars that worked for Social Pantry and we opened up their staff hub so they would work with the inmates.
[00:34:13] Alex: Right. Um, and yeah, so yeah, it was brilliant, brilliant kind of initiative and it's still running now. Um, so yeah. So they came to see Felton? I think they were, yeah. I suppose like anybody kind of quite shocked at how young they are. Um, so how
[00:34:26] James: young are they, the people? So
[00:34:27] Alex: Felton, they've got side A and side B and side A, if I'm correct.
[00:34:30] Alex: Um, are really quite young. Um, boys that are all in for very long sentences. So they all just go straight onto adult prison. So they might be 15 or 16 and in for, you know, 30 years. 30 30. So that's really incredibly sad. But side B is where we had the, um, the staff hub, um, and the lock, the Loch mess as they, as the prisoners named it.
[00:34:51] Alex: And they um, the lock mess. The lock mess, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So
[00:34:54] James: these are people who are gonna be released, I guess, that are gonna be
[00:34:56] Alex: released. Exactly. And the idea was on release that they would come and work at Social Pantry. Um. And yeah, we had, we had one gentleman that did that, which was great. But the girls, I think they, yeah, I mean they, having not seen a prison before, um, you know, I suppose it's, it's always quite eyeopening, but meeting, meeting the guys, you know, I suppose they come out having, yeah, I suppose probably wanting to help is the biggest, you know, the biggest thing.
[00:35:20] Alex: These boys are quite engaging. You know, they want to kind of change their lives. They're determined, you know, it's incredibly sad seeing some of them in there. I mean, not condoning, not saying they shouldn't be or condoning their crime at all, but I think understanding that the challenges that the boys have behind bars potentially makes you Yeah.
[00:35:37] Alex: Understand, you know, your employee better and release.
[00:35:40] James: Yeah. And you know, once a sentence has been served.
[00:35:43] Alex: Exactly. Exactly. They're gonna be released into society anyway.
[00:35:46] James: Yeah. Quite. They're gonna be in society. Better. I think that they're doing something positive. Yeah. We can definitely keep you busy working.
[00:35:51] Alex: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah,
[00:35:55] James: so I'm just gonna have a look at some more of the sort of details it, it of this report, which I, I think is concerning because I mean, it seems like for every category people have become less tolerant of
[00:36:10] Frankie: Yeah. I wonder if, of giving people an
[00:36:12] James: opportunity. And I dunno, why, why do you think that is?
[00:36:15] James: I, I mean, why is it over since 2013 to now that companies have become more averse to
[00:36:21] Alex: Yeah. Giving
[00:36:22] James: people a second chance or hiring XI
[00:36:25] Alex: mean, I can only kind of talk from our experience and definitely for us as an industry like, it, it, it. It's quite challenging. So something like, you know, where it's become more expensive to employ people that then limits our kind of charity places that we can open up and the amount of people we can employ.
[00:36:38] Alex: So when, because it's more
[00:36:39] James: expensive now to hire people.
[00:36:40] Alex: Exactly, yeah. So people aren't really, you know, with the, you know, recent budget, it is incredibly difficult. So, no, I know. I, I, I, so I think that that, so you are talking about having, that's be very specific,
[00:36:50] James: the employer's national insured. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:52] James: Which then was made on lower paid people. Yeah. Especially has made it harder.
[00:36:56] Alex: Yeah, definitely. And, and, and costs have gone up across the board. It's not just our, the cost of our team, it's the cost of all of our, you know, our brilliant suppliers have put their cost up. So if the landlord, you know, there's, there's costs across the business that have then increased as a result of it, and that does that, you know, that that does have effect.
[00:37:10] Alex: So one
[00:37:10] James: thing you would say is because business is under more pressure Yeah. There's less room for these. Exactly, exactly. Charity places. Yeah.
[00:37:17] Alex: I would say from my experience, that's exactly why. Or
[00:37:19] James: maybe taking a risk where you wouldn't,
[00:37:21] Alex: yeah. Or haven't kind of, you know, haven't got capacity to potentially kind of put the right systems in place or the right budget or the right people to kind of, you know, support it.
[00:37:29] Alex: And actually maybe, yeah, maybe there just isn't that.
[00:37:31] James: Another thing we noticed is there's a lot more, um, employees using the DBS checks or disclosure and barring service checks. Which is a way of
[00:37:40] Alex: Yes.
[00:37:41] James: You know, asking about somebody if you're about to hire them. Yes. And it seems like the number of jobs that require those checks has, has grown in number.
[00:37:50] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:37:51] James: Is that something you, you are aware of or No, not, yeah. So I suppose you don't do those checks, do you?
[00:37:56] Frankie: Yes. I mean, you are not
[00:37:58] James: worried about that.
[00:37:59] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:38:00] James: Um, yeah, it says that DBS checks. Have become, you know, they're, it should not be used as a pass fail mechanism. Okay. So I suppose people are doing these checks Yes.
[00:38:10] James: Comes up. Someone's got an, a record of some form. Yeah. And they fail. Yes. Yeah. Where it shouldn't be. It's saying it, they, they should provide opportunities for employers to appropriately assess and manage any risk. So yes, that's saying it might be, it Is the report suggesting in our reflections that that should be the beginning of a conversation?
[00:38:28] James: Not, yes, you are off the list.
[00:38:30] Alex: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I suppose it's important to know hard is what the offense was, as you say. And yeah, for us we do, yeah, we do do checks. Yeah. We, we also don't disclose. Yeah. So for us, sometimes it's very clear when they're a prison leave, when they start, but sometimes it's not.
[00:38:44] James: So you don't tell the team? No, we don't tell the team. It depends person. Yeah. But ultimately we
[00:38:48] Alex: wouldn't, and it'd be down to you whether to tell the team if you wanted to As the prison leaver. Yeah, as a prison leave. And, and because really it's a fresh start for them. But also the crime we wouldn't disclose as like a.
[00:38:57] Alex: If a, a nuclear team at Social Pantry, they'd know what the crime was. So it was an HR group. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you know, to check that. Yeah. I think for our insurance, we're allowed, allowed to employ people that arson. That's another one. Awesome. Yeah. So I can imagine that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a crime that we would, we would say no to, but um, yeah.
[00:39:15] Alex: But we kind of, I suppose, keep it confidential because ultimately.
[00:39:19] James: Do you feel, do you find that the prison leavers do share it or do you think it totally depends on the character? So some do, some don't.
[00:39:24] Alex: Yeah, some. Some, yeah. Some are completely fine with it. And actually some you just wanna crack on and put it all behind them and don't really want to want other people to know or to be asking any questions.
[00:39:35] James: Years ago, a colleague of mine who I was extremely firm with, he, he, he told me that he'd been in prison for football hooliganism.
[00:39:43] Frankie: Oh, how did, how did you feel? Well,
[00:39:46] James: he'd been in the, well, he'd been in the Birmingham Zulus or something, and, and, and I, I was sort of amazed. Yeah. But no, I mean, it didn't make me think any other of him because it done an extremely good job for us.
[00:39:59] James: Yeah. And this was in his youth. And there you go. He made a mistake.
[00:40:02] Frankie: Yeah. So they, so that's somebody that's really gone run with their second child. This point when he told
[00:40:06] James: me this, you know, he was a middle-aged man.
[00:40:08] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:40:08] James: And, um, yeah, so I, I just thought it was interesting and
[00:40:12] Frankie: yeah,
[00:40:13] James: so whoever had hired him in our business, he said, knew this.
[00:40:16] Frankie: Yes. I didn't know I was the
[00:40:18] James: managing director. Whatever I was at the time, I didn't know. But he who, yeah. People who hired him knew this. He'd had, had the conversation and they'd said, okay, just come in and we'll get on with it and
[00:40:27] Frankie: give you Exactly. Exactly. And it
[00:40:28] James: worked really well. And he go, he, he was in our sales function and won ass masses of business.
[00:40:33] Alex: Yeah, brilliant. Because
[00:40:33] James: as you said, some of these people are very charismatic.
[00:40:36] Alex: Yeah. Completely. Yeah. So,
[00:40:38] James: um, so he was one of those. Yeah. And
[00:40:40] Alex: some of them have been very good salesmen in their. You know, drug careers, you know, they're, they're not know, they're not Yeah. There lots
[00:40:45] James: of Yeah. Crimes that involve selling.
[00:40:47] James: Yeah, I suppose
[00:40:47] Alex: that's true. Exactly. That you know, some, they're definitely not transferable
[00:40:51] James: skills is what you're think about here. Exactly, yes.
[00:40:53] Alex: So I went into the kitchen recently and one of them, one of our team members was kind of weighing out these arni and I was like, oh, how you getting on with that?
[00:40:59] Alex: And he like, I can use scales, don't you worry. You knew that about me. I was like, of, gosh, gosh, sorry, I forgot that you were in for. Some quite impressive drug dealing. Yeah, well I remember
[00:41:09] James: talking to someone, so
[00:41:10] Alex: yes, but obviously not, not to highlight that, but that does make you laugh and you just think Yeah, of course.
[00:41:15] Alex: Yeah. No, you're right. Why that was me thinking of, you know, I remember that's talking to someone who just
[00:41:19] James: reminded me, who we'd found a job working on railways. Yeah. Um, in, in maintenance crew at night, and he'd been an armed robber and serious, you know, robber. And so I'd said, I'd said to him, how are you finding working nights?
[00:41:33] James: And he said, well, I've always worked nights. I was quite, quite just on the right side of the tracks. Well, yeah. The right side. And he went on to be, really, became the manager of this team. So yeah, I think to make your point, I think
[00:41:45] Alex: he's, yeah. Such good examples that actually if you give somebody that second chance, then they can just roll with it and they can have a.
[00:41:52] Alex: Yeah. You know, a successful career.
[00:41:54] James: Well that, that's, um, so positive. So where next for your business? What are you, what are you, oh
[00:41:59] Alex: gosh. Where next? So we, um, we were on a ILE growth trajectory at the moment, which is um, that's good to hear.
[00:42:05] James: Yeah, exactly.
[00:42:06] Alex: So we, um, yeah, most recently won the old Bailey and Manchin house contract.
[00:42:10] Alex: So yeah, we're gonna put our hats in the room for few. So the Manion house
[00:42:13] James: is for the law bearer of London isn't exactly, yes.
[00:42:15] Alex: He lives there. Yeah. So we um,
[00:42:17] James: so what do you do for them? Or events, I suppose, is that exactly?
[00:42:20] Alex: Yes. We won a five year contract. We, um, congratulations. Thank you. And didn't
[00:42:24] James: you just win an award?
[00:42:25] James: Can't tell us a little bit about this. So what was your award? Come on, please share Alex earlier. Who did you meet? So we won just recently.
[00:42:32] Alex: We did. We won. We won a King's Enterprise Award. Um, so a King's Enterprise Award. Yes. And we won it, um, for, um, offering opportunity. Yeah. So offering opportunity, which fell within their sustainability category.
[00:42:44] Alex: And actually we were only one of two businesses in London that won, um, one of
[00:42:48] James: only two.
[00:42:48] Alex: Yeah. So there was, so there's a lot of
[00:42:50] James: opportunities, rather businesses to win the King's. But
[00:42:52] Alex: it's a, it's a UK based award. Right. Um, and there was. Uh, the categories of sustainability, innovation at international trade, and we obviously sit in the sustainability category, um, and I think there's a hundred winners from each category, but obviously only two in London, um, which is great.
[00:43:07] Alex: So it's really nice to be recognized. So you met
[00:43:09] James: the king?
[00:43:10] Alex: I did Meet the King, exactly. I, um, yes. Yeah. Coming, yeah. I Not that recently had a baby and you had to go on your own, so, um,
[00:43:18] James: oh,
[00:43:18] Alex: right. Yeah. So off I went, um, to Windsor Castle. That's a Windsor
[00:43:21] James: Castle. Yeah. Have you ever been there? Uh, yeah, a long time ago.
[00:43:24] James: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:25] Alex: It's amazing. It's wonderful. So it was brilliant. It was really good. Um, and yeah, had a nice chat with the king and there was a few other roles there. Princess Anne and Edward was there and it was great. Oh,
[00:43:36] James: it was a whole Yeah. Crew. Yeah, exactly. Turned out exactly. There's a
[00:43:37] Alex: whole crew. It was fantastic.
[00:43:38] Alex: So yeah, we chatted about, um, yeah, about, it was, it was great.
[00:43:42] James: So the, so the King's Enterprise Award is. Um, every year. Is it just, I mean, it's, other companies might went to it. Yes. I think we don't, yeah.
[00:43:49] Alex: I mean, do it's, I, you know, I think it's, it's great award that, you know, we're privileged that alongside some other brilliant businesses, um, that, that, that got awarded.
[00:43:57] Alex: Yes. So I think we retain it for five years. I think I could be wrong.
[00:44:01] James: Or do you get a, a sign you can put on? We got a
[00:44:03] Alex: plaque and then that got presented to us yesterday, um, right at, at, at hq, which was great. So we had a little, you know, celebration of it. So where they go in, um, in Baty where we've got kind of our, our catering units and warehouses.
[00:44:15] Alex: But it was great. It was really nice to be recognized for it actually, because, um, yeah, we haven't, well, deservedly so, yeah. Brilliant. I think what
[00:44:22] James: you're doing is really positive. Could I ask the people who join, I mean, one of the things in our surveys is that people with previous convictions, often when they get a job show more commitment, more resilience and and often more trustworthy, which might surprise people than the sort of average person.
[00:44:43] James: Is that something you have found or,
[00:44:45] Alex: yeah. I mean, ultimately when they join, we have to give them the level of trust. Um, and I think. Yeah, I mean, we haven't kind of had any, had any real issues with our prison leavers or, or, or with our, with our team members. But I think maybe giving them that trust rather than them, them kind of having to earn it as such, I think definitely kind of worked for us.
[00:45:03] Alex: So there's various, you know, various things that they're exposed to, but I think. Yeah, uh, uh, James Simpson actually did a brilliant physio where he, um, he is on YouTube when he talked about, um, all of his prison leave. Obviously it's the key cutting business, and they have prison leavers operate the cash, and they, they show them exactly how you could or how they, how they know.
[00:45:22] Alex: I think what he said, how they know how they, if they were to take money out or they show them how they could do it, so they're like, you know, if, if, if you were to do it, this is how you do it. And actually by giving them the trust or showing them how actually it's. That slight reverse. Why, why would they lose the opportunity they're being given for something so minimal or so small?
[00:45:38] Alex: And also they, you know, sometimes they've come on such a long journey that, to go back a number of, a number of stages would really, would, would, would, you know, would really cause issues or you know, either put them back, back behind bars. So that's
[00:45:49] James: underlying the point that they often are more trustworthy.
[00:45:52] Alex: Yes. I, I mean, yeah, I think so. I'd have to kind of ask, ask the team. I know that when we surveyed our team, they really enjoyed working alongside prison leavers. You know,
[00:46:00] James: and you haven't seen anything to suggest they're less trustworthy, least Exactly. Yeah. Which a sort of,
[00:46:04] Frankie: yeah.
[00:46:05] James: Baseline.
[00:46:06] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:46:07] James: Yeah. Okay. One of the, one of the, one of the things I've often thought is prison leavers might be what well considered to be self-employed uhhuh, because you're not then having to get a, you know, someone saying yes.
[00:46:20] James: Yeah, you are. Okay. I mean, you can just set yourself up as a Yes, yes. Business. Yeah. Um, what do you think about that?
[00:46:28] Alex: So for us, they start on payroll. We had a lovely, a lovely guy who actually, when he first got paid thought he'd been robbed. And I had to say, no, this is tax. And I said that, that's tax. And that's what keeps some people behind bars, like, and he was just like, okay, I get it.
[00:46:41] Alex: So like,
[00:46:42] James: well, that, that's one's you, you know. I mean, it's not voluntary.
[00:46:47] Alex: So he kind of, um, you know, that for him he was kind of like, right. Okay. I, I, you know, I get, get No, I was thinking of the difference
[00:46:53] James: between payroll and being sort of a contractor. I was just thinking starting your own business, you know, you know, sort of starting a catering company like you did, or Yeah.
[00:47:00] James: Why not starting a carpet cleaning business or a window cleaning business, all sorts of thing.
[00:47:03] Frankie: Yeah, definitely.
[00:47:04] James: That's quite a, uh, gives people other op, uh, more options, I suppose. Yeah, totally.
[00:47:08] Alex: Totally. And I feel like, I feel like if so many of them are ambitious, it's just brilliant and I, you know, sometimes, you know, people have started with us and then gone on to do their own thing and, and it is brilliant.
[00:47:18] Alex: Ideally they've kind of got the right experience and, you know, can, can do it successfully. Otherwise it's probably quite challenging, but. Yeah.
[00:47:25] James: Very good. So what message, just to sort of pull things together here. Yeah. Alex, what message do you want to give our listeners or entrepreneurs, business owners or maybe HR managers Yes.
[00:47:36] James: Uh, to, to consider here.
[00:47:38] Alex: Yeah. So I think it's, it's really important that, um. Yes, that you at at least explore it and at least think about it. Um, not only to kind of reduce re-offending rates in society, but often, you know, also to offer an opportunity to often quite driven and charismatic and, you know, hardworking, hardworking people that need the opportunity.
[00:47:58] Alex: It also diversifies your workforce in a brilliant way. And then, you know, fine, if you wanna do it to tick the ESG box, then you, you can also do it for that as well. But I think if you went on the journey, you would genuinely enjoy it and it would give you. Totally different perspective, which, which is obviously often very beneficial.
[00:48:14] Alex: But social Pantry are, um, going to launch actually later this year, which is very exciting. A net a, a networking, um, kind of group where we ideally will kind of pull together charities and HR teams and, and our experience as well. So, so for any businesses, yeah, that kind of want to understand a bit more, then come along to one of our.
[00:48:32] Alex: To one of our sessions and we will kind of introduce you to charities and, and network and other businesses that are doing it, and other businesses that are doing it brilliantly. 'cause I think if we're all in it together and all trying, then we genuinely can, you know, we can, we can have more impact. Um, enjoy the journey together and, and, you know, make a difference, share experiences as you
[00:48:49] James: have been, um, today.
[00:48:51] James: That's really good. How do people find you then, if they want to join this group,
[00:48:54] Alex: social pantry.co uk or, um, or, you know, drop us an email to inquiries@socialpantryco.uk. Um, and then we'll pick that up. And our brilliant Liam, who, you know, heads, heads up our kind of, you know, people's team will, will be in touch and send more details.
[00:49:08] Alex: But yeah, I, it's, it is more accessible than people think and it's definitely worth it.
[00:49:12] James: And it sounds like there are lots of other organizations out there you can reach out to, whether it's charities or probation service. Yeah, exactly. We'll get you started in some way.
[00:49:19] Alex: Yeah, totally. And what's the harm in trying.
[00:49:23] James: Completely agree. What's the harm in trying, let's leave it there.
[00:49:26] Frankie: Yeah.
[00:49:27] James: So I'm gonna ask you two questions Yes. Which I ask everyone at the end of my Yeah. Podcast. Uh, Alex, the first one is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
[00:49:35] Alex: Oh, gosh. Um, what gets you up? So, um, oh, just to, yeah. Deliver incredible food, um, make memorable events and to do it whilst making a difference.
[00:49:45] Alex: I think yeah,
[00:49:47] James: that sounds great. Good spot on. And, and then my last question is, where do you see yourself in five years time?
[00:49:55] Alex: Oh, um, hopefully having employed and helped many more prison leavers. Hopefully we kind of, you know, still pioneering with it. Um, you know, just as involved in prisons and hopefully with a bigger business and more of a, you know, bigger brand and bigger influence to do it with.
[00:50:11] Alex: I hope. Hopefully still in business. Yeah. Well, yeah,
[00:50:14] James: I hope so too. And, and I wish you every success and continue success with that. I think that's a great ambition. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me. Thank you. I've really learned a lot, uh, um, in this conversation about how to approach. What I think is a really important issue and giving people a second chance, I think is an obligation actually.
[00:50:31] James: So congratulations on your award, which I feel is richly deserved. Thanks a lot. Good to see. Thank you, James. Thanks. Thank you. Oh, that was great. Very interesting. Is
[00:50:40] Alex: that
[00:50:40] James: okay? You've told us how to do it. Yeah.
[00:50:42] Alex: Sorry. I felt I was a bit wly at points. Apologies. No, you didn't. Um.
[00:50:47] James: Otherwise, yes. 'cause it was really helpful to hear how you did it.
[00:50:50] Alex: Yeah.
[00:50:51] James: It's all very well saying high prisoners.
[00:50:53] Alex: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there are some really simple steps and I we're going to have a catchy name for this. Group that we're gonna launch. Yeah. We just haven't quite, we need to get it all together, but I feel that will be able
[00:51:04] James: to send this Yeah. To people.
[00:51:06] James: Exactly. Yeah. If they wanna hear about it and you wanna tell 'em across industry, yeah. You can put it as a footer and stuff. Yes. Hopefully that'll help people. And
[00:51:13] Alex: if you ever want a prison visit, then we'll, yeah. Yeah. Come on in and meet the guys.
[00:51:18] James: I did a, we did a course, we had this course that we developed for reading partnership called the 3G Mindset.
[00:51:23] Frankie: Oh yes.
[00:51:23] James: It's a mindset course, which we ran in Wandsworth. It was over a few days. And it was quite successful. Well, I remember one of the, one of the prisoners, I don't, I mean he, he said, oh, I'm being released tomorrow, but I wanna stay in an extra day to finish the course. I thought, yeah, yeah, me on
[00:51:41] Alex: should said, come work for me.
[00:51:43] Alex: Yeah. Oh,
[00:51:44] James: that's so good's funny. It didn't pay me off.
[00:51:48] Alex: Yeah.
[00:51:49] James: Yeah. So, no, I've been in quite a few prisons. I find 'em quite. Intimidating places.
[00:51:54] Alex: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And obviously once, well I get claustrophobia, so I'm just thinking Same. I'm so glad I'm not in here. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Same. I can my, yeah. Anxiety going in.
[00:52:05] Alex: Yeah, you, no, it's good. Oh, well thank you so much. Thank you. But you happy with that?
[00:52:14] Frankie: Bring the microphone a little bit closer to you.
[00:52:22] James: Resettling into society after prison is a huge challenge, especially when employers are reluctant to hire people with a criminal record. Too often talented individuals are overlooked, leaving skills and part too often in, I'll start again at the top. Yeah, we have a drink. Water. A bit of water. Yeah.
[00:52:51] James: Resettling into society after prison is a huge challenge, especially when employees are reluctant to hire people with a criminal record. Too often talented individuals are overlooked, leaving skills and potential untapped, and making them far more likely to reoffend. Today on all about business, we are unpacking Reed's 2025 Prison Leavers Report, which reveals a significant drop in the number of employers hiring prison leavers since 2013.
[00:53:21] James: Joining me is Alex, head, founder and owner of Social Pantry, the UK's leading hospitality employer of prison leavers to discuss why hiring prison leavers matters and how business can approach it.
[00:53:35] Frankie: Businesses
[00:53:37] James: do the last bit again. It's businesses. Yeah. Sorry, my throat's getting a bit.
[00:53:43] Frankie: Just take some more water as
[00:53:44] James: well.
[00:53:44] James: Yeah, yeah. I dunno what's happening. I hope I'm not getting a cold.
[00:53:54] James: Joining me is Alex, head, founder and owner of Social Pantry, the UK's leading hospitality employer of prison leavers. To discuss why joining me is Alex, head founder and owner of Social Pantry, the UK's leading hospitality employer of prison leavers to discuss why hiring prison leavers matters and how businesses can approach it.
[00:54:19] Frankie: Yep.
[00:54:20] James: Is that all right?
[00:54:20] Frankie: Yeah. We'll just splice those together.
[00:54:22] James: Have you got everything we need for that and then outro? Yes. Thank you, Alex, for joining me on all about business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Alex, and Social Pantry, all links are in the show notes.
[00:54:43] James: See you next time. Alright.
[00:54:46] Frankie: Yeah, you actually, do you want me to say that the reports in there as well? If you wanna, if you want to see the report.
[00:54:55] James: Okay. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Alex, and Social Pantry. Als. If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Alex, and Social Pantry, or if you'd like to see our report, all links are in the show notes.
[00:55:08] James: See you next time.
[00:55:10] Frankie: Yeah. Good.
[00:55:10] James: Okay.
This podcast was co-produced by Reed Global and Flamingo Media. If you’d like to create a chart-topping podcast to elevate your brand, visithttps://www.Flamingo-media.co.uk