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Some of the most successful startups are built by borrowing proven concepts, improving them, and executing better. That’s exactly how Toby Burns, Founder and CEO of The Silent Disco Company, built a scalable business from a simple idea.
In this week’s episode of all about business, Toby shares with James Reed how he turned a simple idea into a nationwide brand, built on clever systems, high-volume logistics, and relentless execution that started with a few headphones to now powering thousands of events across the UK.
Toby breaks down what it takes to spot scalable business ideas, dominate a niche market, and build a company that runs without you, and also unpacks how to hire smart, stay lean, and keep innovation at the core of sustainable growth.
Whether it’s starting a company, or looking for startup strategies that actually work, Toby’s journey is packed with practical insights you can borrow and scale.
Check out The Silent Disco Company’s website: https://thesilentdiscocompany.co.uk/
Follow The Silent Disco Company on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-silent-disco-company-group-limited/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
Toby Burns: [00:00:00] I was DJing doing corporate Jewish Arab real high-end events. Had the children's entertaining, probably doing 10 parties or so a week. But I knew that there was a period of time where the adults were eating and the kids finished eating in five, 10 minutes, and then they're causing havoc.
James Reed: So I saw an opportunity.
What do you get when you mix a love for music with a bold idea to reinvent the party experience? A business that turned quiet nights into a booming industry. Today's guest is Toby Burns, the founder and director of the Silent Disco Company. Toby, can I begin by asking you, what was the first silent disco you organized?
Toby Burns: I saw silent disco in America, and I thought, right, if we can do a silent disco for the kids or people that had finished eating, we can entertain them while everyone else is having a peaceful dinner. And I remember watching people in their own little world as if you are on the tube, you are the only person on that train in that moment.
[00:01:00] So you go to America and China and look for new ideas? Yeah, so I go to each of them every year 'cause all the new ideas are there. First or China. I try and go to as many trade shows as possible, and even if I don't find the off the shelf idea that I can swipe and deploy in the uk, I might get ideas and go, I like the look of that.
If I adapt it like this. You have to keep innovating. I say this all the time, like if you don't innovate, you evaporate.
James Reed: So what sort of innovations have you felt have made the biggest difference?
Welcome to all about Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.[00:02:00]
Well today on all About business, I'm really delighted to welcome Toby Burns. Um, Toby is the founder and director of the Silent Disco Company. And um, I've had the pleasure of going to a silent disco more than once, Toby. So I'm looking forward to asking you lots of questions about it. And on my way to work today, coming into the studio, I thought I wouldn't listen to a podcast on the Tube as I usually do, but I'd, I'd curate my own silent disco.
So I had a variety of genres blasting in my head and I walked in with a bounce. So, um, I thought that would get me in the right spirit to talk to you today. And it did. And, um, I'm really looking forward to hearing your story because you started out, I understand, as a children's entertainer, as a teenager, and then you went on Holiday to America and you came across this wonderful silent disco concept, which you brought to the uk.
So Toby, can I begin by asking you, what was the first silent disco you organized? Like. How did people take to this concept when you brought it here? [00:03:00]
Toby Burns: It was, it was actually quite a strange one. I was DJing at the time doing, uh, sort of corporate Jewish Arab real high end events. So what? Regular? This goes regular, right.
So had the children's entertaining, probably doing 10 parties or so a week.
James Reed: Right. So quite
Toby Burns: a lot of parties a week. And then I So you did kids
James Reed: in the afternoon and then adults in the evening? Exactly
Toby Burns: right. Midweek. I was being picked up with a man in a van, um, from school, from college, going straight to do parties.
Even during when you school you were working, doing, yeah. Yeah. So 15. So you started at 15? Yeah. Going out, man, in a van at 17. So you couldn't drive at 15, so someone had to take you. So literally I had a man in a van called Pete. So you had a chauffeur. It's a glamorous way of, with a bashed up van. Well, someone drove you.
Yeah. Okay. Pete. But essentially, yeah, chauffeur was driven in this, uh, smelly old, clapped out van. When and did these jobs. Um, children's entertaining [00:04:00] lots and lots and lots and the, and the story behind it was, I really sort of cut back on that because it's a very unsociable job. I missed out on birthdays, on family events, family.
'cause you were someone else's.
James Reed: Yeah,
Toby Burns: because people were booking me. Especially with the, the kids stuff. Sometimes six months, sometimes a year in advance.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: You know, and then I get an invite for a family wedding two months before. Can't then turn around to a, to a customer and go, sorry, I can't do your kid's party now.
Well credits you for that because people reput do that to us. Reput, there's a reputation you didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Reputation
James Reed: is important
Toby Burns: and in our industry you're only good as, as good as your last job. So I really cut back on that over a period of time because it's very unsociable and I was doing these sort of much larger productions and you know, even some weddings or um, bar and bat mitzvahs, which.
The spend overall were, they're big, sometimes exceeding a hundred thousand pounds in an, in an event [00:05:00] for a 13-year-old. Right. And I've used an example on a, on another pod and it was a two year old's birthday. Right. And they spent quarter of a million quid on this two year old's birthday.
James Reed: And the 2-year-old won't remember it.
No, I suppose else anyone else will And 500 guests. Were you, were you
Toby Burns: a, were you an entertainer at this? I was an entertainer, so I was a very small piece of this event that you saw. Small piece, like quarter of a million mate. But you saw the scale. Yeah. 500 people. I mean, I don't even know 500 people that I could invite to a, my own wedding.
This was a 2-year-old. But it's in their culture to invite, you know, lots and lots of people that have huge extended families. And I, I say it's always relative, you know, if you are earning 25 million, if you're worth 25 million, you might spend quarter of a million pound on a party. If you only earn 25 grand a year, you'll spend 250 quid on a party.
So it's relative. But I did see some quite outrageous, um, events where they spent just, [00:06:00]
James Reed: but you're mentioning this because you saw an opportunity in that or, so I saw, is that why? Yeah, I saw an opportunity is incredible that people spend that much. Yeah, it's sort of interesting as a business opportunity as well.
Toby Burns: So I really, I, I landed in this sort of bar bat mitzvah market, Arab corporate, where I was DJing quite ho high profile events.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: Uh, and not to name Drop, but Google, um, ended up being one of my clients. So I still DJ for them three times a year. So your
James Reed: Google's favorite dj?
Toby Burns: One of them. That's good to know.
But we still, and now they have silent disco and everything, so, but there was a light bulb moment where I used to play five aside football on a Thursday and I actually on a Thursday broke my wrist playing football. I just had a bad fall and I broke my wrist. And I remember going to the hospital that night and I've told this story many times and they said, we need to put you in a cast.
And I said, well I need to DJ on Sunday. Mm-hmm. So I'll come back on Monday 'cause I can't DJ in a [00:07:00] cast. I'll come back on Monday and you can put me in a cast.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: And that's exactly what I did. But it was that light bulb moment of going, if I'm not working, I'm not earning. It's key man driven. People are booking me and I really wanted to create, uh, a business and, and a commercially profitable enterprise.
You know that I don't have to be in it all day every day. But I knew when I was doing these events that there was a period of time where the adults were eating and the kids finished eating in five, 10 minutes and then they're causing havoc. Yes. You know, 'cause they're bored. And I saw silent disco in America.
Um, and I still go to America 'cause all the new ideas are there first or China. Well that's
James Reed: what I thought was interesting. Yeah, it's a good way to go there and look for things and bring them over here. Yeah. And I still do that. And you do that. That's a business strategy I was in of your four
Toby Burns: weeks ago.
James Reed: So you go to America and China and look for new ideas.
Toby Burns: Yeah. So I go to each of them every year and where do I try and go to as many [00:08:00] trade shows as possible. And even if I don't find a off the shelf idea that I can swipe and deploy in the uk, I might get ideas and go, I like the look of that if I adapt it like this.
So I like
James Reed: that. Your business strategy is swipe and deploy.
Toby Burns: Swipe
James Reed: and deploy. Yeah. And I hope your listeners listen. That's the opportunity for anyone listening, isn't
Toby Burns: it? I hope your listeners, you know, can take a few golden nuggets. Yeah. Yeah. That they can swipe and deploy into their
James Reed: businesses. 'cause knowledge is
Toby Burns: power and
James Reed: deploy strategy.
Toby Burns: Yeah.
James Reed: So I've heard that expression before. I like it. So, so do you get better ideas from China or from America?
Toby Burns: Now I think China, because we're going direct to the factories. Right. We have a lot of our stuff manufactured in China. Anyway, so I try and in that week's trip, which I say is my hardest working week of the year, right?
People go, are you're going on a nice holiday to China? And I go, no, it's, it's relentless as soon as I land.
James Reed: Yeah. It's
Toby Burns: nonstop for seven days. Car to factory, you know, factory to car. So you have an
James Reed: [00:09:00] itinerary that's been put together. Yeah,
Toby Burns: and it's a, it's a hardcore week. Yeah. I just took one of our, uh, team with me for the first time.
I normally go on my own. Uh, but we filmed everything for our YouTube channel and, and stuff like that. 'cause we wanted to give a bit of raw behind the scenes and I said, it's gonna be tough. You're gonna be tired, we're gonna get in. You know, you're probably have five hours sleep a night. And even night.
It's not as, uh, it's not as glamorous as I thought it was gonna be. Um, but we tried to have some fun while we were there. But I think most of the tech now. Um, we find in China before, or if I've seen ideas at trade shows, we'll go direct to manufacture, um, in China most of the time. So let's go back you
James Reed: to that first silent disco.
So, so, yes. So yeah. So describe where was it? What was the sort of, it was, was it who were sort of, so I was saying
Toby Burns: that the kids are bored and I thought, right, if we can do a silent disco for the kids or people that had [00:10:00] finished eating, yeah. We can entertain them while everyone else is having a peaceful dinner without allowing noise.
Well, I'd
James Reed: be up for that
Toby Burns: so too, too fast. I still remember it. It was, I, I basically ordered the kit. It was gonna take about three months to get it on the sea, get it here, and I'd sold it in to the next six months of events right before I'd even got it. Um, and I, you know, sold the idea. I had bookings in advance.
Then all the kit was already paid for. So the
James Reed: kit was in a great coming across
Toby Burns: the, yeah, Atlantic. And I remember, and I still have, I promise you, 10 years on the same feeling. And I, I don't go to as many now, but if I do go, I stand there for a minute and only a couple of weeks ago I was at one and I take my headphones off and I still get the same feeling and the same smile.
Watching people in their own little world as if you are on the tube, you are listening. If you are singing you, you are the only person on that train in that moment. Yeah. And that's the, that's the feeling. It gives people, it gives people choice that [00:11:00] they can choose what music they want to listen to on the headphone.
You're not listening to just one DJ of a song that you don't want to hear. It gives people choice and it's a piece of entertainment. And I still have the same smile on my face watching people, honestly, they're in their own world just dancing.
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So it went well. These kids sort of, yeah, loved it. Yeah, just sort of loved it and
Toby Burns: it still amazes me now that people say to me, I've never seen a silent disco before. And we've been doing this 10 years and even I've been,
James Reed: yeah, I've gotta ask where you went now.
I was at a friend's party and it was great, and what I remember. And what I like particularly is you have different lights that show what channel you're listening to, to correct when you're dancing. So it was red, blue, green, green. Correct. And, and so you can find the sort of people who like the same music as you as well in the silent disco and dance together.
And it's fun, you know, like when
Toby Burns: someone says, you know, turn to blue, turn to green, you know, you're constantly a good song on. Yeah.
James Reed: You
Toby Burns: people like choice and this really does
James Reed: give you a choice of, but it is funny when you take them off and you just see people think they're all mad, you know, it looks, it looks very hard.
Yeah. And, and it also doesn't upset the neighbors, which I think is probably why they had it. 'cause they wanted the pulse on.
Toby Burns: Yeah. And, and I think since c and i I [00:13:00] talk about this a lot, I think there's been a real shift from nightclubs.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: You know, so many nightclubs, so many pubs are closing down across the country.
It's very sad. Uh, and we did a, a, an episode on YouTube of nightclubs that we actually work with that are now putting on silent disco events. Right. It's given them a new lease of life. This is your conventional nightclubs are dying. People want to go and see their favorite actor at a venue rather than go to a nightclub and see the same DJ that's there every week.
So there's been a real shift in terms of people partying at home, not disturbing the neighbors, um, then going out to bars and clubs. There's been that real shift.
James Reed: Right, right. So you were sort of doing children's entertainment originally as a dj. Mm-hmm. Can I ask what your persona was? What, did you have a name or what I mean, 'cause I can, can remember.
So my stage name, it was a long, long time ago,
Toby Burns: was DJ tj, which was a play on my middle name Djt. Yeah. I [00:14:00] was, I, I perceived to be sort of your cool children's entertainer, not your clown, you know, the magic, the silliness. Yeah. Uh, it was more cool, it was more disco games. Uh, you know, there was an element of magic, but, you know, fire and illusional stuff just to try and be cooler.
And I think the kids then. Want to be with you on the dance floor. Right. '
James Reed: cause you know you are perceived as a cool Yeah. When as a parent, I mean you just want the kids to be having a good time so you can chat to the other parents and sort of relax. See, as a children's
Toby Burns: entertainer, that was really frustrating when you are trying to perform and the noise in the room is filled with chattering.
Yeah. But now as a parent, I want five minutes piece. Yeah. Well that's why you were being paid. I think I've seen it on both sides, but it is tough when you've got a room of nattering mums. Yeah. And it's really quite distracting when I just, you know, turn up, turn up to level nine or something, turn drown
James Reed: them out.
But I [00:15:00] suppose when you, when you are DJing in the old days, certainly people would come up and ask you to play stuff the time. Mm-hmm. So I suppose that gave you the insight that people quite liked to listen to different stuff to what you're playing and, and people like choice. Choice
Toby Burns: people love choice.
I mean, we do a a 10 channel system now, so you would've had three red, blue, green, three channels of music. We do a 10 channel. You can actually have 10 different genres of music. Are they all different colors as well? All different colors, right. For people to listen to. And we do a lot of that for, um, corporate exhibitions.
Yeah. Trade shows where they might have different breakout rooms. I love and keynotes, so there's lots of use for the headphones, but people love choice, you know, and I think when you give people choice, it's a, it's a form of entertainment, but it also means people don't leave early when the, you know, the DJ's too loud.
James Reed: Yeah. You
Toby Burns: can turn your headphone down or they're playing a song you don't want, you take your headphone off, you go to the bar, you know, until that song's finished. However, with silent disco, it really gives people [00:16:00] a choice that you just flick between what you want.
James Reed: Alright. But it, another view might be that it's taking people away from being sort of together, listening to the same thing, you know, on a dance floor, all dancing to the same tune at a wedding or a.
Festival. Yeah. Which people really enjoy, isn't it? I mean, they're all going off into their little worlds, like everyone looking at their phone. I mean, isn't this a
Toby Burns: concern? I think it actually is the opposite, and I know I'm biased, but the facts are there. Yeah. Go and explain. And the feedback is there that actually, I think it brings people together onto the dance floor.
Right? It brings people along. Because you know, at parties you've got some people sitting at the table eating. They don't really, they're not really dancers, you know? They like to sit there and have a drink, have a chat. Then you've got the people at the bar Yeah. That are flicking back and forward when you've got silent disco, I promise you, even the people that I'm told would never get up at a party and dance.
You know, they're not those sorts of people. They like to sit there and wa they are on the dance floor. They are dancing. So how do you do that? I [00:17:00] mean, how does that happen? The music does it, the choice does it? Well, they, they just,
James Reed: they find something they
Toby Burns: like, they find something they like. And I think that, and a comment that always came up in the early days is, well, how am I going to speak to my friends if I've got headphones on?
My view in the early days was like, well, if you were at a club or a party, you've gotta shout Yeah. Pretty loud over the music to hear each other. You know, you're shouting in their ear. Yeah. It's not pleasant. Sure. Just to talk to each other. This, with this, you just pop your headphones off, have a conversation, pop your headphones back on.
You haven't got a shout over? No, no. The DJ and the music. So I actually think it's, it's more sociable, uh, doing it this way.
James Reed: So you set this business up, you founded this business in the UK 10 years ago, 2015, and you decided to call it the silent Disco Company, which is kind of what it is.
Toby Burns: Yep.
James Reed: I mean, can you talk me through that?
How did you land on that and why? I mean, I, I have a view that it's brilliant, but I want you to [00:18:00] share why, what you did and why all of
Toby Burns: our pr I'm, I'm a big believer in like, brands should say what they do on the, on the tin. Yeah. You know, and I find it much easier when the name. Says exactly what the business is.
Uh, and you know, there, there are other companies in the event space and I think the children's other companies in the event
James Reed: space
Toby Burns: that really say what they, they do. Yeah. And I think maybe it came from, um, the agency as a children's entertainer that I worked for and they were called, they're still going now.
They were called the Perfect Party people. Right. Dot co uk. And you know, that really tells you what that agency does. We are the perfect party people.
James Reed: And they used to get your bookings and stuff and they used
Toby Burns: to, you know, do with all the bookings. I've got my bookings for the week 10 bookings, you know.
Great. And they're still going strong. They're still going.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: I think at a peak there were about 16 entertainers. Now they're down to three or four. 'cause a lot of people do it on their own. [00:19:00] They don't wanna pay that commission. But actually they dealt with everything. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't a lot, you know, 20, 30 quid a booking.
It's, it's, so, it's worth having an agent in that it's worth having an agent. Um, and, and really when we made silent disco, I wanted it to say what it, what it was, which is we are the silent disco company, not any, we are the silent disco company. That was the brand. We wanted to be the go-to experts. We set ourselves quite premium in the market and that really comes down to the customer service.
You, were you the first to do
James Reed: this in the UK at that time?
Toby Burns: Yeah. With our particular model of headphones. There were a couple in the UK that were doing festivals.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: Um, but they were very cheap, like Plasticy China headphones.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: And again, the market that I'd come from, which was that corporate high-end market, we needed something premium Yeah.
Than the sort of, you know, sure. Plasticy stuff. So we really set ourselves premium. Um, and then obviously subsequently lots of, um, [00:20:00] other companies that do similar stuff now. Uh, but we really set ourselves as the silent disco company and all of our subsequent brands. Over the past 10 years. 'cause we have some different brands in the, so yeah,
James Reed: what are they?
Talk me through those. So we have
Toby Burns: the karaoke hire company,
James Reed: right?
Toby Burns: Says what It is the screen hire company. So we do, uh, like home cinemas where you can have an inflatable screen in your garden, have a movie night,
James Reed: an inflatable screen. Yeah. So you just plug
Toby Burns: it in. Right. Inflate you can have a movie night with your family.
Right. That was a, a big lifesaver in, so you, us so you cyber
James Reed: disco company, the karaoke company, the, the screen company. Any others?
Toby Burns: Um, and then we've got a couple, we've bought and acquired other silent disco companies. Right.
James Reed: But they're all coming in behind your
Toby Burns: brand. They come in. So they've got their own names not following the same, um, brand, but they all, they all feed into the silent disco company.
James Reed: Because what I, what, why? I thought it was brilliant. I mean, obviously it says what it does, but by being the first and taking that you became, [00:21:00] you know, like the Hoovers automatically the, you know Yeah, the sort of, we were talking this. With a, with another guest the other day about becoming sort of ubiquitous in that way.
And you gave yourself the name that made that the case
Toby Burns: even before you started. We've got a great brand. The team, the team works so hard and we're so hot on that, you know, and, and the thing is you have to keep innovating. I say this all the time, like, if you don't innovate, you evaporate. Okay. So
James Reed: you don't innovate, you evaporate.
I like that. So that's one of your mantras, which I, I would agree with. I heard
Toby Burns: that from another, uh, who did you hear it from? An entrepreneur called James Sinclair.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: Um, who is based in Essex. Yeah. Um, you know, huge amount of businesses. And he always said if, and I learned that at 1516, if you don't innovate, you evaporate.
If you are not innovating, somebody else is. So we might be the silent disco company.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: But if we just carry on not innovating, another company will just leap from, leap from you. Sure. Yeah. So [00:22:00] we are constantly innovating even to today. I think that's my entrepreneurial mind. What can we do better?
James Reed: So what sort of innovations have you sort of over the 10 years felt have made the biggest difference?
Certainly in
Toby Burns: equipment, you know? Yeah. It's, it's, my team get very frustrated, but as soon as we launch a product, even if we've had it r indeed made in China, within a few months, our competitors will have a near DentiCal. People copy you very quickly. Yeah. And people copy, which is a great, well it's flattering.
It's, it's very flattering, but frustrating for the team that have put so much work in. Uh, and you know, there's just slight changes to it, but I, I alluded to earlier, we have a 10 channel system, you know, to give people more choice. Some of our equipment incorporates Bluetooth. Now other companies don't do that.
The lights on the headphones, we cha we've changed the headphone again about two years ago, 18 months ago to a new model. It's now [00:23:00] got a screen on it. It now tells you what channel you are on in your ear. So like when you've had a silent disco. Mm-hmm. Am I on blue? Am I on red? You're asking your friend, am I on blue?
You know? Yeah. Now it'll tell you channel one, channel two in your ear so you know what channel you are listening to. So all these little things are just innovating the product. Yeah. To make it better for the end user. Um,
James Reed: so that's a sort of continuous improvement ethos, isn't it? Always? Yeah.
Toby Burns: Yeah. You've gotta make 1% improvements.
Yeah. Every day, every week, every month, every year. Uh, 'cause they add up and the karaoke, you know, that was an innovation. Like there, there's other So which is busier now for you than silent disco or the karaoke silent disco still the main thing. Yeah. I mean, we, we are servicing just this week, 220 hires this week.
Separate events. Separate events. Same again next week. How, how many headphones have you got? 25,000.
James Reed: 25,000 headphones. And you've gotta upgrade them every. [00:24:00] You gotta clean them as well, haven't you? Clean them? Charge them in a day and a half. So where'd you do that? What are the logistics of
Toby Burns: that? Well, a lot of team.
James Reed: So you, lot of people. A lot of people. Where are they? Yeah. Again, where's the operation based?
Toby Burns: I've seen other companies that charge headphones, you know, with a table like this and there's cables everywhere,
James Reed: you
Toby Burns: know, and we had special racks made, um, that we can charge on one rack. They're all, you know, all the cables and neatly.
So this is
James Reed: one of your innovation.
Toby Burns: Yeah, so we, we, we'd spend a lot of money on charging racks, but each charging rack can charge 600 headphones at a time in two hours. You know, 'cause we've created the power to be able to do it. So we are innovating. We are even looking at wireless charging at the moment of whether right we can save the time of that staff member plugging in each headphone and go over to wireless charging.
That's a huge, um, not only investment in financially but in time because we need to retrofit. Wireless [00:25:00] charging to 20,000 headphones. Right. That needs an enormous amount of manpower. That's potentially, but the time saving is huge. I mean, everything comes back on a Tuesday. So our model, the way we've been able to scale, well, 'cause most things
James Reed: are on the weekend or,
Toby Burns: yeah.
And our model, how we've been able to scale is through a dry higher model. So it's a do it yourself package. So the party you went to, likely they had that delivered to them via a courier on a Thursday or Friday. You've got it for the weekend, do it, you know, it's super simple to set up. And then on the Monday it gets collected again and it will land back with us in Essex on Tuesday and on Wednesday, Thursday they all go back out again for the following weekend.
I see. So you've only got
James Reed: a short turnaround. So we have
Toby Burns: a day and a half, so pit stop in Essex, unbox check, you know, check them, clean them, charge them and rebox them in a day and a half. Um, and, and as I said, we are in a very, very busy time of year. June, July, August are [00:26:00] our peak months. We're generally busy all year, right?
We do about five and a half thousand hires a year.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: Uh, in total across the brands. But in the summer we're doing in excess of 200 a week. So we've gotta turn around near enough 25,000 headphones in a day and a half. So it's a big logistical challenge, but we prepare for it. We get a lot of temps in, you know, we, we've got five temps in this week just simply charging headphones.
That's all they do. So you
James Reed: need a flexible workforce for this. Yeah, I mean, we have our, 'cause you got peaks and troughs and to seasonally and in the week and that sort of Yeah.
Toby Burns: Look, we have a really busy summer. Um, we're prepared for that in the winter months. We do a lot of, um, events. We do, we do with the screens.
We do a lot of drive-in cinemas. We have the big inflatable screens for drive-in cinemas. We do.
James Reed: Yeah,
Toby Burns: big LED trailers for sporting events. So where you see Wimbledon, you see the big screen [00:27:00] outside. We do, we do them on the trailers as well. So we're generally pretty busy all year round, but for 10 weeks we are exceptionally busy.
James Reed: Is the drive in cinema something you can set up yourself or do you have to come along? Do They're all with teams. Over teams. They are.
Toby Burns: Uh, if you've ever seen a bouncy castle, these are four or five times the size of the, you know, sounds, sounds with a big sound system as well. You must have Well, we can utilize sound system or headphones.
Oh, headphones. We do a lot of driving. Cinemas. I mean, COVID was setting the neighbors COVID. Driving cinemas were a big lifesaver for us in COVID. That was a really difficult time in the space we were in, uh, or are in. But driving cinemas was like the only thing you could do. Yeah, yeah. You know, and we gave headphones, but it's like, stay in your car, stay in your bubble.
Don't open the window, don't look at anyone, don't breathe at anyone, you know, but, but driving cinemas. You could enjoy them. Really, were, were really quite popular in, in COVID because that's all you could really do in your little weird [00:28:00] bubbles at the time. Um, but there we go. That's, you know, the team is really difficult and I think finding a good team, the team is
James Reed: div what difficult in terms of pulling together,
Toby Burns: I think for any business owner, yeah.
Staff and team is the most challenging thing I say to my senior team all the time, the biggest challenge you will have is the team and the staff. I've always found that to be a challenge. Just when you think you've got the perfect team,
James Reed: someone leaves, one person
Toby Burns: leaves again traveling, or you have a problem you've gotta deal with, or yeah, they've been off absent for two weeks.
You gotta, you gotta fill that gap. So I think team is really difficult. Recruiting is difficult, uh, to find. Let's talk about this for a minute
James Reed: because I, I would agree. I think it's really important to get the right people and the, the right people made such a huge difference to business trajectory. Yeah.
When, when you say the. What do you look for in terms of the people in your team? What, what are the sort of characteristics or skills you really want?
Toby Burns: No. Well, there's, for our senior [00:29:00] team, I like them to be a little bit weird. 'cause weird is weird. Weird is good. Yeah. Creativity so weird is good because they're creative.
Yeah. They may look at things a little bit differently, which then you can tone down to fit in with your brand, but you want creativity. You don't want Yes. People Yeah. All the time. And I'm talking senior team here and I've, I've had my fair share of bad senior team, and, and it takes time, it takes experience, bad, weird, or, uh, what sort of difficult, you know, difficult employees where, um, you know, you gotta give them, um, responsibility and it's what they do with that responsibility.
Yeah. But I think for any business owner, it takes a, a period of time. And I use an analogy of like, you've gotta kiss a few frogs before you find your prints.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: And with staff you really do have to, especially our, our operations manager who basically runs everything, um, for us. You know, [00:30:00] he took a long time to find and, and us
James Reed: us.
So you went through a few operations managers, went
Toby Burns: through, went through a few that really, you've got a good one now. He's very good. He's, he's really, really good. That's really important, isn't it? Operations. Yeah. I mean, we've got a small team really, and I like to have a, a smaller team working, uh, a hundred percent as a teams than a, a team where you've got A players and C players.
'cause what happens is, you know, some people aren't pulling their weight. The A players get annoyed.
James Reed: Yeah. 'cause the
Toby Burns: C players are working 50% and then the A players want to leave because they like, you know, competition and they working as a team. So I think it's a really fine balance. With a team creative for our senior team, our marketing managers, our warehouse managers, you know, bringing new ideas, innovation, you know, not all the ideas come from me.
The best ideas come from the team. [00:31:00] I think with the sales team and the warehouse assistance, you know, it's a more simplified role, but finding people that wanna work and want to graft, uh, I've found increasingly more difficult over the past 3, 4, 5 years. Uh, and I think the
James Reed: recruitment of those people finding the recruitment.
Toby Burns: So, talk me through that. What, what are you finding? I think one, it's difficult to find good loyal people. You know, people have a, a huge turnaround of staff now, and I think since COVID, the whole flexible working element, you know, I'm a firm believer of boots on the ground in the office. That's where creativity comes from.
You get the camaraderie. You create the environment that you want to work in. And we are a very, we're a fun young company, so there's always music playing. We're a musical company. We try and make it fun and exciting in the office for the staff. But I've, I've interviewed people where, you know, I will come and work for you, but I want to do two [00:32:00] days at home.
Well, that's not in the job description. We're five days in the office.
James Reed: Yeah, yeah.
Toby Burns: Well if you do want me to come and work with you, for you, and I'm like, it sounds like you are doing me a favor and then me offering you
James Reed: so you don't offer people a job.
Toby Burns: Yeah. Um,
James Reed: but look,
Toby Burns: we could,
James Reed: I think that might be changing a bit now because Yeah, yeah, definitely is because people can see that there are fewer and fewer opportunities offering that.
But it's also, and, and employers and entrepreneurs want people in more,
Toby Burns: but I dunno how you've found, uh, in your, um, personal businesses, but the cost of recruiting somebody now, and I don't want to go too political, uh. But you know, the cost of employ someone is, is huge. Now, you know, I I often say 10, you gotta add 10%.
If you are offering 30 grand, you know, really it's costing us 36 grand with all the extra taxes and PAYE and the NI and everything like that. It's, you know, it might be a 30 [00:33:00] grand roll, but actually the cost to the business is 36 with all the taxes that they add onto that. Well, yeah,
James Reed: the ni is now 15% served pretty much.
So it's,
Toby Burns: it's, it's tough to employ good people at what the business can afford to do. And there is, as entrepreneurs, as business owners balancing act. Uh, and I track my, you know, turnover to labor ratio. That's something we're really, yeah. One of the KPIs that we track. And as we said, there's peaks and troughs of the business.
Um. There, there's a real balancing, it's a real challenge. So you feel that's really,
James Reed: really under pressure then at the moment, the turnover to labor ratio?
Toby Burns: It's, it's under pressure
James Reed: because
Toby Burns: it's our, um, and what's caused that,
James Reed: in your view?
Toby Burns: It's, well, we, we need more. We, we are in an overtrading stage at this time of year, you know, so you need more people need more people, but they have to be on a temporary basis.
Yeah. 'cause when it gets to November, that will naturally drop down. 'cause we are peaks and troughs. We're still busy, but [00:34:00] not to the extent that we are now. But that's a challenge for any business. And it's my job to dilute, uh, the year to make, you know, to fill those troughs with other businesses. And as I said, we have our photo booth rental, a karaoke, so we've managed to fill those peaks and troughs slightly throughout the year.
So the team is still busy all year round. So, so, but
James Reed: do you see a sort of issue around this though, that in terms of costs going up and people's. Maybe less keen to come in that there's a combination of things happening that make it harder to run the business. There's a combination.
Toby Burns: I mean, look, the, we won't go political, but it's making it very, very hard for business owners.
And this is why I've got so many friends and entrepreneurs that have moved out the UK now, because I call 'em turnover taxes.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: 50 to 55% of our turnover goes to, uh, Rachel Thieves, I call her. [00:35:00] Um, but we
James Reed: won't go political. Um, you may want
Toby Burns: to cut that out. We'll see. You can say what you like. Um,
James Reed: there's free speech in this podcast,
Toby Burns: but I hope that get that, I hope that's a nugget that people swipe would deploy.
No. Um, you know, but 55% of our turnover goes on different taxes, you know, 55%. Yeah. Business rates, uh, you know, the va, the PAYE, we are a rental business. The VA really hurts us. We're not selling. Buying and selling goods.
James Reed: Yeah,
Toby Burns: we're buying the goods and renting them out. So cost of sales in terms of that is, is really affected and we have really high vat returns.
So what would
James Reed: you like to see happen? You know, not going political, but, but in terms, you know, if, if that could be changed in some way, you know, if you had a magic wand, Toby, what would you wanna happen?
Toby Burns: My view is that entrepreneurs or a business owner should be in government.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: And I, I really do think that a business person, yeah, and we won't go across the pond, but I do think that having a business person running the [00:36:00] country and entrepreneur
James Reed: will
Toby Burns: be much better for our growth.
And I think for small businesses, I really, I'm, I'm a big believer in this tax, on profit, not turnover, right? Let a company who's put all their eggs into one basket, they're starting a company, they've probably put savings, maybe their house on the line. At least make them earn a profit before you take it.
Right. You know, because I think the growth of that, and I, I don't mind paying more corporation tax, but tax me on profit that's currently
James Reed: 25% you'd pay you, you think that could go up in other taxes. A
Toby Burns: corporation tax I'd pay 40
James Reed: Really?
Toby Burns: But tax me on profit and not turnover.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: You know, and I think that's really, really important.
'cause there's so many taxes. You've got the, we we said the ni, the PAYE business rates, um, all, all of the business that the corporation taxes so many different taxes that it's actually in between for us, 50 and [00:37:00] 55%. And when you actually break it down for a business, I guarantee it's around the 50% are actually paying out, you know, if you're in that top 3% of earning Yeah.
Yeah. Over 250 grand or whatever. And I think a lot of people won't employ people or they won't go above that VAT threshold. Yes. You know, because they're earning more money in their pocket earning 85 grand. Than earning a hundred grand. So
James Reed: they're better off staying as a sole trader rather than creating a business that gives jobs to people.
And,
Toby Burns: but if we tax people on profit and not turnover, people would take, take the risk, employ people and grow a business because they're not taking it all before you've earned any, you know, any decent profit. So I would pay more. So I'm also, I, I'm really passionate about the educational system. Um, and we touched on this in the, in the pre-chat, chat I call it.
But I, I think the educational system as it stands is set up to fail, uh, children. And as a child that's about to go into, uh, [00:38:00] full-time education, I think it's set up for the industrial age still. And you are, you are taught to, you know, go get a job, you'll be, go to university, you'll get a job, you'll be in that job 40 years and you'll retire.
That doesn't happen anymore, you know, and I, and I'm really a huge fan of AI and I'm sure. You may deploy it in your business. I think we all deploy it in everyday life automatically now. Mm-hmm. But AI is going to take jobs and I say like even on the doctor front, you could go to uni, uh, train for seven years to be a doctor.
But I do think they'll have AI in awards monitoring all the, um, all the monitoring stations and then you just have one doctor instead of four to check the monitoring to see if you know there's any problems. Right. With any of the even doctors. Yeah. And I really do think AI is going to affect it. So I'm doing a lot of [00:39:00] keynotes or I'm trying to do more, is the reason I'm doing a lot more podcasts for personal brands, but also as a lead magnet, you know, different team, you know, if someone wanted to come and work for us, it, there's a big picture of content marketing as you know, but speaking in colleges, I'm like, go set up a business.
'cause I do think that, um. Young kids that wanna start a business. And with ai, AI is going to enable people to create a business super quickly, earn money from it, sell the business, and then go again with the assistance of ai. And I dunno if you followed Daniel Priestley, the two of you heard Daniel Priestley, the entrepreneur, he talks about it all the time with education and the even.
I've used a great bit of AI where I've created apps and websites in the past. Same with you, where you may spend 20 grand, 30 grand on a website and it takes three months to build it. Ai. Now I can literally type in what I want, how [00:40:00] I want it to look, what features, and I watch this AI program code me in front of my eyes in 15 minutes, a whole website,
James Reed: right?
Toby Burns: And these kids and stuff. I do think there has to be some reform in education that the schools teach them how to use ai. It's not going anywhere. We've gotta embrace it. We've gotta use it to our strengths. It's not all gonna be built to destroy the world. There's a lot of goods that can happen and I think it will replace a lot of jobs.
So I do think we should be teaching in business studies in all of, in it, in the technology classes, the use of AI and how you can create websites, create businesses that you can build a business. And I think there'll be a much higher turnover of businesses being created and sold and created and sold.
Because this industrial revolution, which is what the educational sector is based on, um, I've got so many friends that have been in jobs like [00:41:00] 20 years or 25 years, and then they're just made redundant like that. There's no loyalty.
James Reed: Yeah. You
Toby Burns: know, if, if a business has to skim the fat. So I think you've gotta create your own economy and your own destiny and AI will allow you to do that.
And my, even my 3-year-old daughter, she's three years old. I've got her maybe silly of me to do so, but I think to have that skill like these kids can like navigate a phone. What have you
James Reed: done? We've got a lot, like kids
Toby Burns: can navigate phones, iPads, like a notification will come up on my phone. She's swiped it, cleared it.
She's three years old and we don't give her a phone or watch TV unless it's the weekend. We're quite strict with that. But on the weekend, like I might get chat GPT and I'll say, what do you want your bedtime story to be tonight? And we'll find your So, and it was like, I want, I use this example, I want, I want Spider-Man on a jet ski on holiday.
So I put it into, write me a bedtime story, got chat g about Batman [00:42:00] on a jet ski. This is a new use of it. I haven't heard. This is great. And I've literally, and in what, five seconds. It's given me a bedtime story about Batman on a jet ski. I've read it to my daughter and she has used her creativity. Her mind of not, and I think books are important.
She's got loads of books, but for her to be able to use her creativity at three years old to create what she wants, that's in her mind. And we've got the AI tools to do that. I think that's amazing.
James Reed: It's a bit like going back to what you're doing with a silent disco. You're choosing your own, your own disco tracks, choosing your own, like choose your own story, put it read, put it into GPT.
And that's, I'm a very
Toby Burns: visual learner. I'm not good at reading books like eBooks. Um, I'm good at audio books. I'm good at, I'm a visual learner. I can remember stuff. Actually taking it in, reading it off a paper book I find really difficult. So I try and give her that skill because I wasn't good at it. But creativity and using AI when she's in school, I want her to be taught how to use the [00:43:00] different AI tools because, you know, I, I do think in 10, 15 years, look where we've come in the last 10 years.
Yeah. Yeah. And with the emergence of ai, um, I just think. You have to embrace it and you have to use it to your strengths.
James Reed: So you, are you, you said you're doing keynotes that you are obviously devoting some time to this, but what, what's is, is the key message of the keynote that schools should be embracing AI or they should be embracing entrepreneurialism?
Or both? Or both? Both,
Toby Burns: both. Look, we touch on many things. You know, I say be curious, be different. If you're different, it's a good thing. It's not. But you know, it's almost looked at if you are disrupting the classroom, you are sent to detention, but your mind's just working differently. And I was one of these, and most entrepreneurs are dyslexic or A DHD, A big majority of, yes.
That's
James Reed: been a common theme on the podcast. You know, Elon Musk,
Toby Burns: he's very weird. You know, you look at Richard Branson, highly [00:44:00] dyslexic, some of these amazing entrepreneurs have had, um, you know, trouble, not, not school in schools, and they leave school and they go create a business. So when. You are disrupted in school and then you are put in detention or excluded.
I think you've actually gotta embrace those kids a little bit more because they are different. Their mind's obviously working differently and put them to use, don't punish them for it.
James Reed: Yeah. So, so flag them as future entrepreneurs and give them a different program, which would teach 'em some of these things.
Exactly. But it doesn't seem that, um, business people are likely to be running the country. Does it? 'cause there don't seem to be many in parliament. They're too busy running their businesses. Maybe the one thing I, maybe, I dunno. The thing,
Toby Burns: the one thing I always find hilarious is a is a government reshuffle.
James Reed: Right. Why? It was, I
Toby Burns: just find it hilarious. Obviously you've got the health minister, uh, you know, the, the finance minister. Oh, I want find out why you find the, and I say at, I can find you humor in this. Let's say, let, let's say you're in a position where you've got a cleaner, [00:45:00] a nanny, a gardener, a chauffeur, right?
That's like me saying, right. That's a nice home. That's like, that's like me saying, right? The gardener. You are now the chef.
James Reed: Right?
Toby Burns: The chef. Is now the nanny.
James Reed: Oh, I see.
Toby Burns: You know, you, you're shuffling them all around, but they've got no experience in that particular field.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: They're not experts in their field.
No, they're
James Reed: not experts.
Toby Burns: So when they do a government reshuffle, I find it hilarious. So they're literally moving the gardener to the kitchen.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: The kitchen to the chauffeur. And they've got no experience in that field. And, and I really do think that, that the government should have the expert in their field at the head of that department.
James Reed: So someone who really knows about health, running the health department. Someone who knows about business. Exactly. Running the trade department, an ex-lawyer or,
Toby Burns: yeah. You know, the transport minister is now head of, head of the NHS. That makes zero sense from a business point of view, um, in terms of being a, an MP of how they can then run that, you know, [00:46:00] to the best of its ability when they've got no experience in their field.
So do you think it's a
James Reed: case of being over promoted then, or just.
Toby Burns: Over. I, just the way it works. Recruitment I just think is failed. Um, yeah. So it's a failed system. It's a failed system. It's quite difficult to
James Reed: jiv though, so it's a failed system. Yeah.
Toby Burns: But I, look, I say to my team, we are our own economy. We can't control what's going on on the outside.
We can only control what's going on within our business. So we have to create our own economy, create our, the own, our own environment that we want to work in and be our own bank. You know, don't rely on the bank, be our own bank, and decide what we are gonna do to grow our business. 'cause we can't rely on
James Reed: what
Toby Burns: happens outside.
Um, and although, you know, across the pond there are many things that are, are wild and people don't agree with. You do have a businessman running a country who's ran multiple businesses very successfully. [00:47:00] Uh, and I think he's gonna make a positive change for America in a business sense. You know, you look at the fact business of figure coming out, it's, he's making a difference.
So I do think that we should have, you know, entrepreneurs that have retired or, uh, you know, chairs now coming into government, um, to, to really help. And you've got loads in the Lords, but I think you need them at the, the head of the tree. They should
James Reed: be brought in more from the Lords or the Lords is underused, maybe.
Toby Burns: Yeah. And I think they've gotta be brought in. They talk about
James Reed: reforming the Lords, but that might be one useful way of doing it. The, the departments use those people more.
Toby Burns: But I think there has to be, it's interesting idea, there has to be a shift there because I think, you know, lots of people are moving abroad.
We opened in Dubai in 2023, so we've got a very small operation there compared to the uk. But I think when I opened that, I was just at that point, so frustrated.
James Reed: Really
Toby Burns: with all the taxes. I was like, well, [00:48:00] I knew, I knew quite a few who had done
James Reed: it. That was, that was the last government that frustrated you and now this one as well.
So yeah.
Toby Burns: Um, feeling frustrated. You know, we all thought, yeah, we all thought the grass was greener. You know, many of us may have sh shared that view. There's not much grass in Dubai, but, um, it's certainly not greener. And obviously there's talks about October with further, um, oh, further taxes, further tax rises, and I think that's really gonna hurt the working people.
Uh, and you know, I class myself as a working person, Igraph every day. So does my team. Uh, so it was my wife. So I think it really does, it will, it will cause an effect. Uh, and I just think they've got the strategy wrong in that respect. If you want to have growth. So many people I know have left so many. My brother-in-law left for Dubai, his opened his business out there.
Right. I know just so many people leaving because it's not attractive.
James Reed: No. And that makes the situation worse because there [00:49:00] are fewer people to tax. Yeah. So it's a sort of, um, it becomes a bit of a doom if we're not careful.
Toby Burns: Yeah. It's a, it is a real problem that I think may be addressed in a couple of years, the next general election, and you give someone else a go.
But I, I really do think it comes down to, if you can put some business, like entrepreneurial people at the top that know how to run a business, how to skim the fat, really be profitable, I think that would make,
James Reed: yeah. When you look at the huge scale of public expenditure and, and you think, you know, if you're running a business and it's making a loss or heading in the wrong direction, you look at how you cut costs and you might take 5% off or 10%, but I mean, it might be hard, but you can do it.
I mean, you put your mind to it and you do it, but it seems like in this space, it's just, oh, no, we can't do anything. No. The, and we'll just have, yeah. But each one going.
Toby Burns: We're not as profitable this year. Yeah. So I'm gonna raise our prices. 30%.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: And our customers, you know, going, [00:50:00] hold on,
James Reed: I'm not gonna, we're happy with 5%.
Yeah.
Toby Burns: But you know, it's always on the customer and that's always on us as the, as the public
James Reed: to
Toby Burns: take the hit. We're actually, no, you need to skim the fat, be more efficient, have someone businesslike that can be more efficient. A bit like the whole Elon Musk going in and trying to be there. Efficient.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: That was never gonna work. That was like a,
James Reed: well, no, he's gone back to failed marriage. That it's a Starling, which is doing quite well, I think. But from all, I think that he dropped of 30 billion or something.
Toby Burns: But it dropped again, didn't it? 'cause he's gonna open his own political party. Oh, is he? Oh right.
So the share price in Tesla. Oh, that was Tesla. Yeah. Dropped right down. Again, I'm a
James Reed: starlink customer. I think that's a good, okay. That's a really good service. I should
Toby Burns: do that. 'cause I live very. If you live in a remote place like I do in Wilshire, it's really good. I have looked at that. So I, maybe I will.
I'm a big Tesla fan anyway. Yeah. Being a customer, but, um, starlink is a, is a great bit of kit. Maybe I will. It's an amazing
James Reed: business. Yeah, amazing business. So, so I would [00:51:00] agree. I I, I would say if I was asked if you could do one thing to improve the situation, it would be make, make the UK the best place to start and build a business in the world.
And you have a fighting chance of attracting people and creating the wealth that we then need to spend on all these other services.
Toby Burns: Yeah.
James Reed: But if you just keep squeezing the orange that's there, it will run out of juice and you'll just be left with a few bits and. That's no good at all. I, I, you need to plant orange groves by bringing in the entrepreneurs.
Toby Burns: I could move abroad and, and a lot of people have said, would you go to Dubai? We have a business there and it's not for me, one that heat. I love the heat, but that's another level of heat
James Reed: I'd say. But I could, um,
Toby Burns: I've been there in the summer. It's very hot. Well, China, a few either that was bloody hot as well, but I was, you know, I say I could move, but I'm a big fan of UK business.
I think we have incredible stuff here. We've got an amazing, uh, financial hub. You know, I just drove [00:52:00] past Can Canary Wolf, it's buzzing. We've got a great financial hub. We've got an amazing law system, uh, as well, believe it or not. Um, you know, we've got a great law system and systems and processes in place.
We've got the core right here of a great, great country for business. If you just keep taxing people so they don't have money to spend, there will be,
James Reed: there will be nothing
Toby Burns: left.
James Reed: I think that needs to be the goal to make it a great country for business because that's what creates the wealth. And you know, I've got other ideas around philanthropy companies where certain part of the shareholding is held by foundations that can then be spent on social community.
Yeah. You know, of causes. I think a lot more can be done. I mean, Britain was a, and is a trading nation. Yeah. It's always thrived as a business nation. If it's not gonna do that, there's not much left for it to do.
Toby Burns: Well, we don't do much import export really? Uh, no, no. We're not a huge manufacturing company.
Um, I, I, I [00:53:00] think there's so, so much potential, but I just wish, you know, we gave the incentives. Uh, and I use an example from China, you know, 'cause I, I'm a big fan of China. Okay. Some of their ways are a bit strange. Um, and people think they're spying on you. But actually I, in my opinion, they get a lot of things right.
One of the things that I just find fascinating for businesses is any company that does a trade show or an expo, any goods they export, uh, from that trade show, they get a 1% rebate off their tax bill from the government,
James Reed: right?
Toby Burns: So they get a big pat on the bat. Well done. You've done a trade show, you've exported goods.
Whatever the value of those goods are that they've exported, it's 1% off those goods, off their tax bill. Just that tiny incentives, you're growing the economy, we'll give you 1%. That could be quite a lot of money when it comes to it, though, you know that, that, and I think well done. You know, what if we did that [00:54:00] here on exports?
We're not a huge exporting country, but those little incentives for businesses to actually want to do it, want to grow, want to export, want to make more money if they were just to get something back rather than taken. More
James Reed: people do it. That word incentives, I think is key to this. You, I think, I mean we as business people know that you need to make sure your team is motivated and energized around what we're trying to do.
And that's a really important part of it, the incentives, right? We're always looking at how to improve and tweak them and there's not enough thought around that. I don't think I would agree with you. Yeah. So let's, I like your expression. You know, we are our own economy. I once met a man, an amazing man called Jeffrey Langdons who was a teacher and he was, he was a teacher in Pakistan, in Northern Pakistan and he had been a soldier in the Indian army and went after independence.
Just stayed there 'cause he didn't have a family in England. Became a teacher. And I remember him saying to me, he said, well, you know, Pakistan might be in a lot of trouble, [00:55:00] but my bit of Pakistan name the school he ran. That's gonna be really good. And listening to you talk about, you know, we are our own economy, your business reminded me of that.
You know, we have control over a certain amount of things that we can make really good. Yeah. Regardless of what's going on more widely. And, and I was thinking about that and what you're saying. Uh, I was thinking, you know, if you were to go back to the beginning when you started out, is there anything you'd have done differently?
Or you, is there anything you, how you approach things you think I would, that would've made your economy better or you're gonna do now? What, what's on your mind, Toby?
Toby Burns: I think, um, experience really, uh, experience gives you knowledge. Uh, and the knowledge is ultimately power. I think. I didn't listen to a few people early on and one of the bits of advice I was given, uh, and I listened to one of them was the first people you should hire is a bookkeeper and a pa,
James Reed: right?
Toby Burns: And I got the bookkeeper that was my first member of staff, didn't have anybody, but I [00:56:00] did have a bookkeeper because I didn't want to chase invoices. It was boring, uh, and a waste of my time when I can be bringing in sales. I hated the, all the adminy side. So the bookkeeper did. Pa I only got about three years ago really?
So seven years into the journey and I wish, looking back, I did that earlier and someone told me to do it earlier, another entrepreneur. So
James Reed: why is,
Toby Burns: why is that? Because they give you time,
James Reed: right?
Toby Burns: They give you time back, which now is precious time that I could have had at the beginning, which I now ha now have, you know, can you deal with this?
Can you deal with the electricities up for renewal, whatever it might be. Um, she will do it for me and it gives me all that time back insurances, you know, we have so many different insurances. That's another tax that, uh, the IP insurance, premium tax. Mm. Another crazy tax on all of our insurance to adding it to our list.[00:57:00]
Yeah. Uh, but, but even insurances. I could spend an hour, you know, doing comparisons and getting all our fleet of vehicles in should she does all of that. So it gives me, and that's just a very small part of what she does, but giving me all that time back means I can focus, or a business owner can focus their energy on growing the business or getting sales.
So I never use the word regret or anything. These are all, no, these are learnings, these are learning and experience and knowledge. But I, I do wish that I had a PA earlier on because I would've had more time to maybe grow, uh, quicker or in a different way or just had more time to do other things. But I'm very content that, you know, some, some business owners want an absolute monster of a business, you know, 50 million, a hundred million pound exit, and, and they've got, uh, VCs involved.
You know, they're scaling huge with other people's money [00:58:00] and some people want to do that. Some people like a, uh, a lifestyle business, you know, that gives them a really nice lifestyle. They can go on there four holidays a year. Um, and I'm somewhere in between that I've never borrowed any money apart from, uh, for properties.
Everything has been self-funded through the profits of the business. And I always had a rule from when I started that 50% of the profits would go into property and 50% would go back into the company, uh, whether that's new products. Um, r and d team, you know, they're the biggest investment is your team. And that was always sort of the rule in my head, that's what we do.
Why did you choose that rule? Why did you wanna put money into property? So, from a really young age, and I I touched on it, 15, 16, I, I always surrounded myself with very successful people. Uh, and there's a book by Jim Rowe, which you may have read, and he always said, you will become [00:59:00] the average of the five people you surround yourself with.
So if you surround yourself with five pro golfers right, you'll rubbish at golf. After a period of time, you will become better at golf because you've surrounded yourself well as, as
James Reed: long as you're playing golf with 'em rather than in the pub or something. Yeah. I mean, I'm not
Toby Burns: a big
James Reed: golf f but you, but, but you were getting a lot of, but, but so I, this
Toby Burns: is an interesting insight for a 15-year-old have, so I surrounded myself with ultra people.
Where'd you get that idea from? From that book? No. That book I only read a few years back. Yeah. So, so what made you think at that early age that, that, because you were flyer to something, this is really good advice for people listening. You know, if you see someone with a nice car, you go, how did they get that?
What do they do? Maybe our entrepreneurial minds, I always think we are wired up a bit different to most people. Yes. You know, the minute we wake up, so the minute we go to sleep, we are thinking about business, we are wired up differently. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and not everyone can just be an, an entrepreneur.
You're wired up [01:00:00] different. So, you know, I would see. Aspirations. You know, I'd love to have a, you know, by the time I'm 40, to be that secure and not have to worry for my, for my children. Yeah. I'm 15. I'm not thinking about children yet, but I'm already thinking, planning for the future. And there's a common trend in my opinion with every entrepreneur that I've met, Uber successful entrepreneur, they all have vast amount of property from my, from my experience.
So you
James Reed: saw these older entrepreneurs when you were 15, had accumulated property. They've
Toby Burns: all got property, right? The real wealth is in assets. And I say for a business owner now, if you don't own assets, I think you're screwed with how the, the government are taxing you. I think if you don't own assets for long-term wealth, um, you, you need it for stability and, you know, for wealth essentially.
So. And a lot of these, so this is like your insurance
James Reed: [01:01:00] in
Toby Burns: a way. Insurance of property. Otherwise, you know, I don't want to be working till I'm 70. Right. You know, really. I'm sure as a entrepreneur I'll be dabbling in lots of things till I suspect you might till I drop.
James Reed: I, I think entrepreneurs are
Toby Burns: artists.
They never really stop. But you know, the real hard graft, you wanna be able to be in a position if you wanted to, to go on a 30 day cruise, whatever it might, you know, tickle your fancy. And a lot of these entrepreneurs had, some had residential, some had commercial. And I listened to lots of advice. I talked to these people.
I want to know, I want to get all this knowledge. Knowledge is power. So you just ask,
James Reed: so when you're 15 you just say, will you ask questions? Yeah. Well you have a chat with me about what you do or that sort. So you went
Toby Burns: even now? Yeah, even now, if I meet someone really successful.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: I'm asking as many questions as I can.
You know, how do you do? Well, that's what I'm
James Reed: doing on this podcast,
Toby Burns: you know, a week after week. So we are getting nuggets of information. We are,
James Reed: and you are sharing really interesting insights.[01:02:00]
I always ask, um, two questions at the end of my podcast. Um, uh, the first is there's a clue on the wall. Um, the first is, and, and this is important to me, is what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?
Toby Burns: My, what really gets me up? Uh, and I think happiness, you know, the, the definition of happiness changes, uh, throughout a business career.
And I think at the start is it's money. You know, money's gonna make me happy. And then you soon realize as time goes on, money doesn't make you happy. It gives you opportunities, but it certainly doesn't, um, buy happiness. But I think family, and it sounds cliche, but family. It does get you up in the morning.
You wanna support them, give them the best life possible. But I also tell my wife, I could work from home every day. I don't like golf. I could spend two days on a golf course [01:03:00] mm-hmm. And go in a couple of days a week. But I am out, I'm out the door at quarter to seven. I walk the dog. I'm in the office by half eight and I love being there with the team.
The team get me up in the morning as well as family or my daughter jumping on me. Mm-hmm. Um, but I like to go into the office. I like the creativity, the ideas, the problem solving that excites me. I don't have to do it. I have a team there, but I genuinely love going in. And I think as long as you love what you do, you'll get up in the morning and go to bed late because you're living and breathing what you love doing.
James Reed: You'll love Mondays if you love what you do. Yeah. Yeah. And I love
Toby Burns: a Monday 'cause it's a new week.
James Reed: Yeah.
Toby Burns: And I'm like, what do I want to achieve this week? I almost do a SWOT analysis on a Monday of like. What were, you know, what were the threats last week? What were the opportunities that we can work on this week?
And Monday for me is, is a reset button. Okay? We've got five days, not a lot of hour. You know, [01:04:00] we're in the office eight hours a day, we've got 40 hours. What can we achieve in 40 hours of work this week in the office? I mean, I do stupid long days still as any entrepreneur does, but what can we achieve as a team?
Uh, and I think Mondays are a reset button just to look at last week, look at this week, have a plan, make those 1% improvements, and then the following Monday you'll be 1% up on last week.
James Reed: Exactly. I like that. The reset button. Yeah. That's the, and then the last question is from my book, why You 101 interview Questions You'll Never Fear Again, which is, um, uh, uh, interview book we did 15 years ago now.
Wow. Um, no, no, that's not correct. An interview book we did 10 years ago. It has several editions. So this question is, um. One of the faithful 15 as it's described, and it's where do you see yourself in five years time?
Toby Burns: What
James Reed: such a, have you had anyone say
Toby Burns: like on a beach somewhere?
James Reed: Oh, you can say that. Yeah.
No, I, I would
Toby Burns: [01:05:00] be very, very bored. Um, I would love to be, you know, these baby steps I think are important. We'd love to be in our new unit, um, much bigger unit. We are working on some business' ideas at the moment, new ones. And I have an idea of turnover of where I want that to be in five years. 'cause I think business owners really underestimate what they can do in five years and overestimate what they can do in one.
So we tend to do our business planning in five or 10 year stints.
James Reed: Right.
Toby Burns: Because I think that's really important that, that business owners, you know, really do overestimate what they can do in a year, but underestimate in, in 10. That's, that's something you've observed. Yeah. Yeah. So we go. If we've got something to work for in five years in terms of turnover, then we can work that backwards.
What do we need to do year by year, month on month to achieve that? So we have some targets in terms of figures that we want to be at in five years. Um,
James Reed: well if you grow, you'll [01:06:00] turnover at 15% a year. You'll double it in five years.
Toby Burns: Yeah.
James Reed: Which is doable, isn't it? It's doable.
Toby Burns: We want to go a bit further than that.
You've got bigger ambitions. I'm pleased to hear it. And if, if I use my sort of, you know, um, my view of buying a property once a year, buying five years time, which have another five commercial units, there we
James Reed: go. Very good. Well, I wish you every success of that. Toby, thanks so much for coming in. Talk to me today.
Thanks. Enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Thank you.
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