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And the crisis shows no signs of easing.
In this week’s episode of all about business, James Reed talks to Mark Game, Co-Founder of The Bread and Butter Thing. They’ve built a business where commercial success and social impact go hand in hand, offering help by rescuing surplus food from major retailers and getting it into the hands of those who need it.
Mark’s model of supermarket surplus into consistent, dignified support for thousands of working families proves that you can build a sustainable, logistics-driven business while maintaining dignity and delivering real impact. And your business can partner with them to drive meaningful change.
James and Mark explore how poverty has changed, why stigma keeps people silent, and how The Bread and Butter Thing is using smart logistics and scalable systems to meet real human needs, with empathy, efficiency, and long-term impact that goes beyond just food on the table.
02:27 The Bread and Butter Thing: impact and operations
07:28 challenges and solutions in food redistribution
09:06 the role of community and volunteers
25:38 Mark Game's personal journey
32:03 building management teams
35:16 opening new hubs
42:53 community and confidence
53:08 sustainability and growth
59:28 future goals and reflections
Check out The Bread and Butter Thing’s website: https://www.breadandbutterthing.org/
Follow The Bread and Butter Thing on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bread-and-butter-thing/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
James: Welcome to All About business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture
James: today on all About business. I'm really delighted to welcome Mark Game to our studio. Uh, mark has come from Manchester today and he's the founder and the [00:02:00] CEO of the bread and butter thing, an award-winning charity that helps make life more affordable for people by redistributing surplus food through community-led food clubs.
James: Um, this is a subject that I'm really interested Mark in learning more about, you know. What is the situation? Why are you doing this? And also your own journey, um, to become a leader of a charity that obviously is doing really important work. I understand that you supply a quarter of a million meals a week to people principally in the north of England.
James: What is the issue here? What, what is going on in the UK that has made this charity such an important, um, provider of support for people? What's happening?
Mark: The stark truth is that wages don't pay as much as they did fam. Things are cost a hell of a lot more than they used to. And working families that are doing all the right things, uh, that government and society would want of [00:03:00] them still can't make things stretch.
Mark: So we have best part of 15 million people in poverty, but poverty is a really difficult thing to wrap your head around because. It's not just a physical manifestation, it's emotional as well. And when you have people that don't, they, they're doing 50 hour weeks. So I, I do a podcast as you know, James, and, um, I meet a lot of our members that we support, and I see working families all the time.
Mark: Last week I met a data analyst for the Ministry of Justice. His wife is a full-time payroll clerk, and they used bread and butter because at the end of last year, they came out of a fixed term mortgage and their mortgage quadrupled overnight.
James: I see. So this is because interest rates have [00:04:00] gone up, interest rates have gone up.
James: Suddenly they've gotta pay a lot more. Absolutely. So quadrupled is quadrupled. So that's, that's tipped them into what you would call poverty.
Mark: Well, yeah, I What would you call poverty? Because between them, I'm not sure that's, I wanna understand that's the difficult 15 million people are
James: sort of
Mark: in this category.
Mark: What, what, what do you call it? What, so that, that's kind of defined by kind of looking at 60% of the kind of average salary sort of thing. But, but I, but I, I see poverty differently. I I, I think poverty in itself is, you take, David that I just mentioned to you, he, he, he's not looking at an average salary.
Mark: He, he's a data analyst and his wife's a professional as well, so. Well, I know what data analysts paid. Yeah. And it's quite a lot.
James: Yeah. So, uh, so it's his outgoings that of course problem. It's his
Mark: outgoings that have crippled him. Yeah. So, so would you say he is in poverty? Well, he wouldn't be a government to statistic, but is he struggling to get by?
Mark: Bloody hell yeah. [00:05:00]
James: Right. Your principal customers or audience, what do you call the people who participate? Members. Members. We call 'em all members. Yeah. They're like co-op. Right. So your
Mark: members are, are there typically people with jobs? Yeah. So half of our members are working families. Yeah. Right.
Mark: Absolutely. The other half, yes, there will be people on benefits or there'll be retired people or, um, people with disabilities.
James: Right. So let's start with the people in jobs. So this sort of in work poverty mm-hmm. Phenomena. You, you said work doesn't pay as it used to. Yeah. Was the sort of implication, uh, when did this start becoming apparent to you and what are the causes of it?
Mark: I think it started really to become apparent to us probably a year or so before COVID. Right. So just before COVID things, prices were putting the pressure on. Obviously austerity are coming with 2008. Uh, and that was hitting a lot of things. So you, you're starting to see, uh, cutbacks in public [00:06:00] sector. We, we were seeing a lot of people being made redundant and thousands of people from the public sector losing their jobs.
Mark: Right. But,
James: well, actually jobs went up during the coalition, I have to say that, which is fascinating because I was there and I remember there were more vacancies and we more people ended up employed at the end of the coalition than at the beginning. And that's really interesting because,
Mark: um, that could be a separate podcast in itself, couldn't it be?
Mark: Well, if something's going on here though, that's different from just
James: unemployment, which is awful. I agree. I,
Mark: it, it is and, and, and it, and it, and it's looking at the inflation costs, et cetera. There, there's a really interesting graph where you can see from the eighties to 2025, where you can actually see the graph of the, uh, kind.
Mark: Salaries, the average salary is going up and up and up and they kind of plateau in the noughties. Yeah. Real wages
James: stopped rising.
Mark: Real wages did stop rising. And that's
James: the productivity of people stopped rising. And
Mark: RPI didn't stop rising
James: prices. Yes. You mean? Yeah. Absolute [00:07:00] wages stopped. Well, that's, that's why real wages didn't keep going because prices kept
Mark: going faster.
Mark: That's the conundrum here. That is absolutely the challenge when you act, when you start to look at the cost of product, the cost of living going up and up, but your wages don't. That has to be acknowledged and I don't think it is sufficiently, I don't think there's enough support that is out there to help working families.
James: So one of the reasons I was keen to talk to you, mark, is that I'm concerned that this is gonna become a bigger issue with new technologies. Potentially consuming jobs and more people are finding themselves Yeah. In, in this difficult situation. Yeah. So is that a worry of yours? Is that, do you feel that your, the demand for your service is gonna get, you know, how are you gonna fulfill it?
James: How are we gonna prepare for this? What do we do? I as a
Mark: society and you as an organization, [00:08:00] I think it's really interesting, James, that, um, I would say from my perspective and what I see every day, that we're already in a problem. Because whether they lose their jobs or not, people can't afford to get by.
Mark: So I, I would say there's a vast majority of people already in low paid work, gig economy type stuff that frankly isn't meeting the day-to-day needs. Um. So we already have people that need support that are working, and I don't know where the kind of AI revolution's gonna go and whether we're gonna look at universal basic income, et cetera, but that's gonna cost billions that nobody wants to pay either.
Mark: No, I think that's, that's the rub of it. Yeah. I mean, that seems to be the, the problem. I agree. But at the same time, what the, the dichotomy that we see is you have citizens of the UK doing everything that is expected of them, and yet they cannot afford to get by and the help that government [00:09:00] gives them.
Mark: Um, I don't think there's any way of kind of dressing this up. I think it's hidden. So there is a lot of, so if you, if you think about a working family. The person that goes to work, they don't engage with the benefits system. So where do they find the information about what is available for them for free dentistry or free optometry, et cetera.
Mark: There is no marketing out there. There is no central resource for them to find this help and support. So we say hidden help isn't help, it's just not there. And there are billions, literally over 20 billion every year of unclaimed benefits that should be out there.
James: Really? Yeah. That seems to me that could be solved by some sort of very well designed hub, digital hub or resource.
James: Yeah. But that's not there at the, that's not there
Mark: right now. I'm, I'm sure that people [00:10:00] listening, there'll be people screaming, oh, well, as citizens advice there is, but they are completely oversubscribed and really struggling to do the great job they do already. Yeah, it's not enough.
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James: Go to read AI and get started. Read ai, your higher power. So you, you founded the [00:11:00] bread and butter thing? Thing did, yeah. In 2015, as I understand. Um, what motivated you to do that at that particular time? And I have to ask because I'm always intrigued by this. Why did you call it the bread and butter thing?
James: Ah, right.
Mark: Okay. So, so my other half Jane, uh, started this with me. If you, I guess you could say she's, she's the brains in the back of house and I'm the front of house. Right. And, um, so where does the bread and butter thing come from? Well, bread and butter is your everyday essentials. So, um, my dad always used to say, that's the bread and butter of things.
Mark: And why is it a thing? Well, I I, I call it a thing because I, I, I saw it as a movement. Put it in a sentence. It's becoming a thing. The bread and butter thing is becoming a thing. So it's more of a, a conceptual thing to become a movement, recognizing the need for such provisions.
James: Okay.
Mark: Complicated. I know,
James: but, but your dad used to say this, I used to say the
Mark: bread
James: and butter.[00:12:00]
Mark: That's my bread and butter. That's what I do every day.
James: That's my bread and butter. Right. So that's what, so, and then you work with your wife. Yep. Jane. Uh, and how, how do you, how do you divide up responsibilities? Sorry, why you laughing? That's a tricky one, isn't it? Yeah. Well she's not to, I we're both as well.
James: Do you know what? We we're
Mark: both
James: accountants
Mark: by trade.
James: So you're both accountants.
Mark: Yeah. Now this is interesting. So, but Jane's a far better one than I am. So, so she puts you front, so I would, she's more forensic and more more compliance. Forensic accountant. She's much more forensic than I would ever be. And I would say I'm more of the corporate financier.
Mark: So that's the way we. Role, but that means that I can go out and do the deals, whereas she'll make sure that we're making every penny count. When you say go out and do the deals,
James: yeah.
Mark: What do you mean? I mean, what
James: deals? Well, grants we've gotta find funding to set up. So we So you're getting grants from donations?
James: Yeah. That's the deal. Or, or do you get food as deals as well? Yeah, absolutely. You're dealing with, well, yeah. So, so talk me through a couple of deals you've [00:13:00] done recently. Okay.
Mark: So, um, we've had to look at local authorities are a good example.
James: Yeah.
Mark: Um, local authorities invite us in to come and open our bread and butter food clubs in their area.
Mark: When they do, um, what happens is, um, we will ask them for the first year's costs and the capital cost to set up. So the way we work is we set up, um, a man in a van almost. So
James: it's Well, you ask them to finance the first year's cost. We do. Yeah. Because you wouldn't have thought of that if you weren't an accountant.
James: I mean, honest, inspired Go on. So they won't Wait, I won. Ask this question. Well, this
Mark: is a spin, James, because what we do is say it's go, is you can get give, give us your first year of funding. Yeah. And I know we're a charity, but you'll never have to fund us again. Right. Because it's, it is financially sustainable in your area then because the costs, the, the money that we charge our members [00:14:00] for their food covers the running costs for that area.
Mark: Right. So once it's established, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. You can run it. So, so, so we can go into three and five year deals comfortably on one year funding.
James: Right. I can see the appeal for the local authority. Exactly.
Mark: Yeah.
James: So like every good deal is good for both parties. Absolutely. So how many local authorities have you got signed up?
James: Wow. Um, so it is around 30, I guess. And if there are any local authorities listening, how do they find you, mark? Well, because I think they should.
Mark: Yeah,
James: I, I think they should too. Or, well, it sounds like a good thing. So I mean, it's cost 'em one year to get it set up. Yep. And then you can run for three or five years.
James: Exactly. And no cost to them. Yeah. So what's your, where'd they find you, your Uur l Say where do
Mark: our, our easiest one is bread and butter thing.org. So that's the website. Get in touch by all means. And you have the capacity to keep growing, do you? We do. So what we find as, so what's our, our barrier to growth, it's the food.
Mark: So it's unlocking more surplus food. [00:15:00] So we are the largest B2C food redistribution charity in the uk. Um, so you said quite a lot in that company? I did, didn't I? In that sense, B2C explain business to consumer. Yeah, business to customer. So we basically take it end to end. So you'll take it
James: from a supermarket, we'll take it
Mark: from a supermarket, a farmer, a manufacturer, and depending on what time of day we pick it up, it could be in the hands of the consumer that day.
Mark: And you do that? We do that. Right. And you said you're the biggest in the country? Yeah, so we have 140,000 families registered with us. We operate through 145 food clubs across England. So as south as Maidstone and as North? As North br. So, so, and how many food suppliers do you have?
James: Probably about a hundred.
Mark: But,
James: and again, you said there some of 'em are farmers.
Mark: Yeah,
James: yeah, yeah, absolutely. So they were send
Mark: you potatoes direct or whatever. Yep. So a lot of out upgrades. Um, farmers, have you ever seen a two kilo parsnip? Uh,
James: maybe. I'm trying to think [00:16:00] what's a, yeah. Why, why particularly a two? They're just huge. They, or people don't wanna buy them it.
James: No, exactly. You can chop 'em up easy. They're either
Mark: too big or too small, but Oh, I see. Yeah. Actually it doesn't matter.
James: They, it doesn't matter. I wish I could grow one of them in the garden. I don't think we've achieved that. That would win a prize, wouldn't it? So, so you get all those off cuts. Yeah,
Mark: exactly.
Mark: We get the out upgrades and they call 'em out upgrades. Yeah. So they're either too big or too small or, um, again, um. If there are things that are still on the, on the tree. So top fruits like apples. Yeah. We will do a deal with a farmer. Again, more deals. Yeah. Where we'll try and make it cost neutral so if they carry on picking, so sometimes, um, particularly post Brexit.
Mark: Yeah. Um, farmers will keep hold of the laborers and they won't always have something to do, so they've got a bit of surplus labor. So then we'll kind of subsidize that and say, we'll pay you a sum towards that labor, but give us the fruit, get 'em picking again [00:17:00] for the, uh, kind of class twos or what, what isn't going go to your mainstream customers.
Mark: Right. Right.
James: So you've got farmers, then you, you had two other categories. So
Mark: manufacturers.
James: Yeah. So, so what happens there? What, what, what are they giving you?
Mark: So lot, lots of different things. So our grade is a, is a good way of thinking. It. Let, let's just say there's a quality rejection from a manufac from a retailer.
Mark: So, I dunno, there's been a, a, a problem with calibrating the labels so it doesn't look pretty or um, so a whole lot of tins have the labels on wrong. Yeah. Or there's salt missing or an ingredient missing out out of something. So there, there's lots of different reasons, but the main one tends to be around forecasting in and having food that's not got long enough life left to go on the shelf of a supermarket.
Mark: 'cause if you think about it, let's just say for argument's sake, the manufacturer makes it with seven days life on it, then it's gotta go to a distribution center and it's gotta have a [00:18:00] minimum shelf life on it to get into a distribution center. And then the distribution center's gotta get it to the supermarket itself.
James: I'm thinking about that, but how the hell are you doing this? 'cause, I mean, you've gotta do all of that too, to get it to your members. We do, but we're far agile, you see? So what do you do? Put it in a van and drop. How, how does it work exactly? How do you make yourself Exactly. So we have,
Mark: uh, we have three, three warehouses, but we also partner with a logistic.
Mark: Where are they? So one in Stoke, one in Manchester, one in Durham. Are they big sheds? Sorry? Four, four. Actually. Four. Because there's one in Spalding as well. Right? And and they're not big sheds. They're about 20,000 square foot. Yeah. Each one of them. And, uh, they've got about 15 vans at each one of them. And what we do is get, um, partner with, uh, third party logistics.
Mark: They bring the food into us right from the manufacturers, farmers, et cetera. And then we'll look at making from whatever's inbound that day, the best possible offer for our members to go out on [00:19:00] our vans to So you create a parcel.
James: Yeah.
Mark: But is that what you do? Is that how it works though? Just sort to describe to people listening.
Mark: Yeah. So, so we understand. So, so, so what our offer is to the kind of member, the end user is, um, three bags of food for eight 50. So a bag of chilled or frozen food, three bags of food for eight 50. Yeah. So bag of chilled or frozen food, a bag of fruit and veg and a bag of cupboard goods.
James: Right.
Mark: Typically about 35 to 40 quiz worth of food in there.
James: Right.
Mark: So what does depend on you getting enough of each to come into your warehouse, is it? Yeah. But that's why we kind of do it that way. Again, accountancy is that portfolio approach, right? Yeah. So you have enough suppliers, you get enough variety because each supplier doesn't plan for surplus. 'cause a surplus is a mistake effectively, isn't it?
Mark: Sure. So you have to have enough people going up and down in your supply chain so that you've got an underlying constant feed. So is that quite labor intensive for you to package them all up like that? Well, what [00:20:00] we do is we put it on the vans and then we go out to the each community project that we partner with to open our food clubs once a week.
Mark: Yeah. And the community come and volunteer. Oh. So that's done loads. So that's how we keep it, our cost down. So each van has enough in it to do three packages, and then we get community volunteers to come and help pack the bags.
James: So if you wanna volunteer to work with you, you Yep. Same place. And go to the same place.
James: Say it again? Bread and butter thing.org. Very good. Well, that sounds like a great thing to do. And you said that you had got how many of these community centers? So we got
Mark: 145 across the country. Right. And, and you're trying to grow more? I, I'm assuming So what? We're trying to, where was the first one? Moss side in Manchester.
Mark: Moss side? Yeah. Is that why you
James: lived
Mark: there? Sorry. I, um. We started in ma in Maasai because I was introduced to Michelle and Elaine that ran the food bank, their compassion food bank. And Ebner, who worked in the back, taught me how to pack bags and she was fierce. So I, [00:21:00] I, I had three months of training with Shena and did a lot of thinking in there and I started So you were volunteering then yourself?
James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a great story. So then you thought, I'm gonna do this. I, well, I was So you've done it slightly differently to a food bank, though, from the sound of what you've described. Yeah, absolutely. It's so do you wanna make, just make clear what the difference is? Yeah. So
Mark: what's the difference mainly?
Mark: Well, a, you don't refer to us. Anybody in the communities can come along. So we scrutinize the community and the area rather than the individual. 'cause everybody gets a bit. Tired and bored and fed up of being, having to demonstrate that they're poor. Well see whether they
James: qualify, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
James: I can imagine that's not, yeah. So so you just say we are here. Yeah, absolutely. If you wanna come, come and it's 50 for three of these. Yeah.
Mark: And then it's one of those, so if you go back far enough, so I used to, I used to run, um, a company called Company Shop and um, which did commercial kind of boot rooms, staff shops selling cheap food to the food industry.
Mark: Um, [00:22:00] and whilst there kind of developed the first social supermarket in the UK as a subsidiary of it, and the first social supermarket, what is that? So that was a, that was means tested. If you're on U Universal credit, you could Oh, you had to show some evidence. Yeah, exactly. Um, you could come in, but that, that just got me thinking and that showed me how you can go beyond simply calories with such a model because.
Mark: Everybody talks about food with this James, but actually there's so much more because the community piece is huge. The fact that the volunteers come from the community and they feel like they're doing it for themselves gives them a pride. They feel ownership. And the members come along and they all get to know each other.
Mark: They get to know their community. And then we have service providers that do come along, like welfare rights or public health or citizens advice. And they will also come along and piggyback our service. [00:23:00] And that was almost accidental at first. Mm-hmm. Um, because they just noticed that there was a cluster of people in one place at one time, predictably every week.
Mark: So they started to shape their services around us, and then we started to recognize that and started to do more curation around it to see what each community needs. So
James: the,
Mark: the, these hubs are open one day a week, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. But everyone knows when it is. Everybody knows when it is. And again, it's on the website.
Mark: We've got like a store locator. They're all listed on the website. Yeah. There's a, there's a store locator on there, so probably postcode it and you'll be able to see if we're near you. Bread and butter thing.org. You got it.
James: Good. No, I think I, I think it's, it's good that we spread the word indeed, big part of my desire to talk to you today to understand this better and give other people the opportunity to learn about it because it's a great initiative.
James: So the dig people, this, this word dignity. Mm-hmm. I heard you use it and I see and recognize it myself. [00:24:00] The importance that work has in giving people dignity and purpose in life. Yeah. Um, you've obviously come to that from a different angle in a sense, but, but because you are sort of looking at it from how you run your community hubs Yeah.
James: Rather than providing jobs. Do you think that's becoming more of an issue in society generally? That it's harder for people to hold onto their dignity? I think you found the
Mark: other word that's hard as well. Purpose. Yes. I, I think you're, I'm worried about this. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I've hear, I, I mean, I'm down in London with you today.
Mark: We're going to Westminster after this. And, um, there are people in Westminster that say community is lost. And I, I frankly don't believe that at all.
James: Well, you don't believe it because you see it in your sense. Exactly. Yeah. And you are there with the people, right? Yeah. And I think people need to get outta Westminster more.
James: Frankly. I could not agree more. And sit in businesses, sit in organizations like [00:25:00] yours, talk to people and see actually what's going on. Because I mean, they don't seem to be particularly well tuned in Do they on that, on that issue? No, they don't. That being an example.
Mark: Yeah. It is a great example. And it, and we see it every day and that's what we celebrate on our podcast.
Mark: So
James: celebrating community.
Mark: Yeah. And everyday people. Yeah, just there's some unbelievable people that doing unbelievable things. Despite their hardships. Yeah. Well that's inspiring, isn't it? Yeah. I And, and that just, it feels like a privilege to be able to just go and chat to 'em.
James: You, you said to me earlier, and I, I hope I'm not putting you on the spot, that you, you had a, a sort of mischievous youth, if that, that's the right word.
James: And then, and then I'm interested 'cause then you became an accountant. Yeah. Yeah. And now you are running this. Yeah. I would say remarkable organization that's bringing people together and doing good work for the community. Can you just tell me a little bit about [00:26:00] your own journey? Because I'm intrigued, mark, and you are laughing.
James: I wanna know more. And I, I think there's a story to be had here. Yeah.
Mark: Okay. Irish Catholic family born in Preston on a council of state, uh, youngest of four lads. Right. We were pretty feral as kids.
James: Right.
Mark: Um. Did your parents work? Yeah, dad worked full time, um, back in the day at Danish Bacon. Right. Um, but uh, so he
James: was making bacon.
Mark: Yeah. And I, I do, you know, um, mum didn't work when, when she got all four of us, 'cause obviously I was the last one around. She wasn't working by that point, but four
James: brothers. And you were four brothers. You were the youngest of four, so you must be pretty tough. I got shouty. I dunno what your big brothers are like, but you must be pretty resilient.
James: Yeah.
Mark: So yeah, we, we had a bit of fun, but Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, the reason I was saying a bit of a rogue, um, we, we, we did do some stuff and I did end up with some juvenile convictions, et cetera. Right. So, so I was, um, [00:27:00] caught joy riding Right. And took a lamppost off. Uh, a street corner at doing 16. How old were you when you were doing that?
Mark: 15. So 15. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I I was lucky. I was, I was very lucky. You were, you could have killed yourself or other people. Well, yeah. Um, I was gonna say, I was lucky I didn't serve time for it. Sorry. Well, that who, well,
James: yeah. So luckily none of those things came to pass. Exactly. And, and again, time loss.
James: There's a of luck involved in life though, isn't it? There is. You look back on that and you say, couldn't
Mark: agree more because if you think about it, James, if I'd had done it post 16, I, I'd have probably had a criminal record that would've affected me and would not have got, allowed me to become an accountant and qualified, et cetera.
Mark: So
James: how did you go from joy riding in Preston to becoming an accountant? I mean, that's the next step I'm interested in was did your mother say you sought yourself out? Did someone else, what happened? It's
Mark: funny. I, I don't, I. There was like a little voice in my head, stop screwing around sort of thing in my, in my early twenties, I think.
James: One of your [00:28:00]
Mark: personality told you, yeah, don't do that anymore. Do something else. Is that what happened? Get, get a grip. That's interesting. Getting of age, you know. And what age were you then? Probably 22 ish. Right. Um, and I think a lot of young men grow up in their early twenties probably. Yeah, I think so. I I do think that, that there's a truth to that.
Mark: Um, but it, but I think school wasn't great. Mom and dad weren't educated, so they didn't really understand the value of education either, so they didn't necessarily support. So youngest of four lads going to the same kind of Catholic comp. Yeah. As I get through the door, first words from the forum teacher, God, not another game.
Mark: Alright. It, it just didn't go well. That's not fair, is it? I mean, yeah.
James: Yeah. Reputation's been made by your older brothers. That's not fair, is it? I mean, but anyway. Okay. But your name is good for, oh God, not another can That makes it a good quote. Yeah. So, alright. So that's not a good start, is it? It didn't help,
Mark: [00:29:00] really did it.
Mark: No, it didn't. So, so I, you know, I, I, I, I came out of school without, with, with very fewer levels. Very. How
James: many have I might ask?
Mark: Four. Four? Yeah. Um, one of them was a C, right? So, um, I, I think the only thing I like is the fact that I did, um, I actually got, um, a b in physics O level without studying whatsoever.
Mark: That's good. I just liked physics.
James: Did you get a level in mathematics?
Mark: I did. So that helps for the accounting, I guess. And then I went on to get. An A and a level maths at night school and then realized that I like maths and I like understanding numbers. And started to think about that. So you went to
James: night school after you left school.
James: So this is that further education. So this is really important. So what, so this, this voice prompted you, what, 22 to do that? Yeah. Yeah. Because No,
Mark: no. I went out to get a job at 16 and just spend money, burn money, go and yeah, enjoy life. And that's what
James: you did. And that's what I did. And
Mark: yeah.
James: So what, so what, so what age did you go to night school?
James: Well, I, something, something that was,
Mark: it's that lit. It is that [00:30:00] little guy at 22 or whatever. Just come on time. It's time. And then I, so, so what sort
James: of jobs were you doing between 16 and 22? Um,
Mark: so, so dad had a business, dad had a frozen food business. Um, oh, so that's interesting. Yeah. So it's a connection there.
Mark: Yeah. Um, it's a difficult one because he actually had two businesses and they both failed and they, you, you can look at it and wonder whether or not that's something that drove me into accountancy as well, because I could actually see what was happening in there. Right. But you can also look at market conditions because he was definitely in the eighties when the supermarkets were really coming into their own.
Mark: And the High Street stores were somewhat. Oppressed by them. Um, and that, that change in market he didn't adapt to.
James: Right.
Mark: And I, I think that's what caused it. That's hard to see
James: though.
Mark: It is hard to watch. Yeah, it is. 'cause he suffered with that and he, he had a lot of kind of stress and heart conditions in and out hospital during that time.
Mark: So it's a tough watch. But, um, yeah. So that's kind of where I was, but [00:31:00] frankly to the Mickey when I was working for him. 'cause I could Right. He didn't fire you though. No, he
James: should have. Well, okay, well, we'll leave, leave it there. You got a nice dad. Yeah. So,
Mark: so then you did the accounting. Yeah. And um, so what I did with the accounting, I went onto the A CCA route and because I was like over 22 at this time, they, they had a mature student route.
Mark: So I took that, but then got a job with an accounting firm when I'd done the foundation stage of a CCA. Recognized how far I was behind others, so decided I was just gonna do 'em every six months. So it suddenly became very driven, right? I went right, I'm gonna leapfrog some of these people that are younger than me that are doing the same exams because actually I need to play catch up now.
James: Right. So And you managed to do that? Yeah.
Mark: And
James: then, and then what did you do when you qualified? So
Mark: qualified, did a bit of audit, did a bit of, uh. Corporate finance, but that, is [00:32:00] it still in Preston or No? Uh, Lanre. Yeah. Lanre, yeah. And then started to do business planning. So I'd found that, um, one of the partners where I was working was doing consultancy, uh, for helping people to develop their SMEs in a, in a preparation for exit sale, float, whatever.
Mark: Um, and I, I found I was really quite capable of that. Yeah. And, and started to help develop management teams for exits and sales. Um, and then went on from there to do it with a couple of others. We set up our own practice and one of my first client building management teams, building management teams, grooming businesses for sale.
Mark: This is, this is
James: an
Mark: unexpected turn of
James: events, but I wanna ask you, what, what's the, a couple of key things you wanna do to build a management team if you wanna sell a business? 'cause this is a added bonus for us. Yeah. Well, I, I guess for me.
Mark: The key thing that we always talked [00:33:00] about is, um. Making sure that the management know which buttons to press to actually deliver.
Mark: Because so many teams say, we need a budget, and the budget just means numbers. And a budget to me always means you need an operational Gantt chart to go with it. What are gonna be the triggers to actually make that happen when you say it's gonna happen? And I, I dunno why, but so many times that's a blind spot.
Mark: It's like, we're not reaching budget. Well explain why. Oh, well we haven't thought about this, this, and this. Yeah. And, and the operations and actions that need to go with it don't seem to get documented as they, they ought, everyone thinks, oh, well if we just kind of do that and we go 3% or whatever, and we put a marketing plan behind it, it's not very useful.
Mark: No. It, it is. Gotta have. It sounds like you're applying that knowledge
James: in what you're doing now. Yeah, very much so. Second chart. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, you're running a real logistics operation here. Uh, yeah. Sounds complex and impressive. You laughing. Is it? I mean, it must be quite hard, isn't it?
James: There's a
Mark: lot of plates to [00:34:00] spend. Yeah, but there's a good team there and it, and I think that's the, that be a good team now. That's the secret source. That's a good team then. Yeah.
James: So depends on what you, what do you look for in your team
Mark: that positive self-starting can do philosophy. You can train anybody to do most things.
Mark: I think if they've got the right attitude and the right determination, then you get the right team
James: can do positive self starting philosophy regardless of the role. You're looking for that in the people who join you. Yep. Because they're people who get stuff done, I guess. Got one right. That's good. That's good advice for everyone.
Mark: We run. You can imagine, Jane and I, we, we run it lean, we, so we, we don't have, you have to, don't you? Yeah. And everybody that comes, even within senior positions, it's like, we expect you to roll your sleeves up and crack on. Don't expect your team to do it. And we, we've kind of got this thing, we're like the pony express.
Mark: We have never ever [00:35:00] missed opening a food club ever. And if that means I've gotta be on the vans day, that's fine. We'll do that. And everybody is expected to do that. So we all dig in when needed.
James: Right.
Mark: When's your next opening? Next opening of a hub? Yeah. Uh, so we are opening, well I I'm focusing on, um, Whitby at the moment.
Mark: We're opening in the seaside town of Whitby. Yeah. So that should be early September. I mean, we've got a couple of others that were kind of infilling around. Um. Our regions at the moment. So in Greater Manchester and places. But so
James: what, how do you choose them? So you've chosen Whitby as the next one? Yeah.
James: Well,
Mark: how, what do you look for? How do you do that? Funding can drive it. So going back local authority. Yeah, exactly. So if a local authority or a private kind of philanthropist or whatever wants to get involved and do some legacy piece, how much did
James: it cost to set one up then?
Mark: How much [00:36:00] you got? Yeah. Good
James: negotiator, bro.
James: I'm not gonna fall for it.
Mark: Do you not wanna say, or is
James: it,
Mark: it varies. It varies regionally because it depends on how far away we are from distribution centers, whether we have to do contracts with third party logistics to actually come to your area, et cetera.
James: Yeah.
Mark: So I, I'll give you a ballpark. It's anywhere between one 50 and two 50
James: hundreds of thousands.
Mark: Yeah. So
James: up to a quarter of a million. Yeah. But once it's set up, it, it runs. That's it. It runs. So if anyone listening wants to set up and support one of these, yeah, definitely. Please do. 150, 250,000. And I know it sounds a lot, but you know, but lots of businesses are located in neighborhoods. Yep. Where they could usefully do this actually.
James: I mean, if companies got behind this. Yeah, that would be great, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? I think so, yeah. Okay. So you, you also mentioned Mark, that um, you, you work with people who are out of work, unemployed people. Mm-hmm. Or if that's the right way of describing it. [00:37:00] Um, and I think you do some work around skills and helping, we do support people into work.
James: So, um, which is something we do as well at Read. And I, I'm just interested in what you're doing and how you get on
Mark: with it. So a number, quite a lot of people that come to us that are unemployed are quite away from employment, I would say. So we do work with them on things like confidence. And so for example, today again, we, we've got something that's called a living library.
Mark: So what we've got is a theater company that has been working with a dozen of our members to give them the confidence to be able to stand up in Westminster today and tell their story. Wow. So
James: are you gonna stand up in parliament and tell your story? I mean, that's a lot of, that's quite a big, it's a lot boost of, I mean exactly.
James: Many of us will find that challenging. So we,
Mark: we, we, yeah. And don't get me wrong, so do, we're not, we're not, we're not standing them on a podium and just saying, listen to me. [00:38:00] What, what we've got is we've got one of the rooms in Westminster. Yeah. And it'll be like a networking event and, but they're gonna share their experiences.
Mark: Exactly. And it gives them confidence to go and network, introduce themselves, and these are skills that they will need to be able to get to interview, et cetera. Sure. So we, we think that that, that when, when you look at, um, people that are unemployed, a lot of the time people miss the trait that actually they're so far away from employment that they need a lot of training and development to actually get to that point, to be ready to be employed.
Mark: So when you say far away from it, is that because they've never worked or
James: Yeah.
Mark: They have
James: other issues or, yeah, so
Mark: I, I'll go back to the kind of, uh, social supermarket. So we, we did a, we, we did a pilot and it was in Barnsley where we did, we tried to train up 20 people to get jobs. We had a local employer that said, I've got enough jobs to [00:39:00] employ all of them.
Mark: So it was a large employer. What sort of business? It was in the food industry.
James: Right.
Mark: So it was, it was a nice link. And, um, so we started with 20 and we went through the process of getting them to interview. And the day of the interview, half of them turned up. Yeah. And then six of them got offers and on the day that they should have been starting work and we were in touch with them all the time and supporting
James: them,
Mark: we started with 20.
Mark: Yep. 10 got
James: to the interview
Mark: and then six. Got to six, got offers. Offers two turned up on the first day. Right. And one walked out that day.
James: So you had a 5% success rate. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite so, so how did you compute that? So what did you do with that? That's quite hard, isn't it?
Mark: You got, yeah. You gotta reflect failure.
Mark: So what did you do with that information? But,
James: well, we learned from failures. Yeah. So what was, and this
Mark: is why we are where we are now, James, with looking at this and looking at those confidence [00:40:00] levels first. We went too fast too, too soon. Right. These were people that ha had generational unemployment, didn't even have a clock in the house.
Mark: Yeah. So don't work to a rhythm school was what Reg regulated their household.
James: Mm-hmm.
Mark: So it, it's. You have to start understanding that there are basic life admin and skills that sometimes people need support with to, to help them feel confident with alternative rhythms.
James: But I mean, some people listening might think, well, these people didn't want a job in the first place.
James: Really? You know, they just, I and you are just trying to make me swear.
James: No, this, this is a, this is a, you know, widely held view. Yeah. So what, and it's bol Say that again? It's bollocks. Why? It's bollocks. I've never met somebody like that. You've never met so in all, no. So, so what's the issue then? What, why didn't you go from 20 to one?
Mark: So I, I, I mean, it's, I'll give you another example [00:41:00] and how do we get 20 to 20?
Mark: Why I keep saying is the confidence, and this is why we invest in these theater companies and, and such things so that people can build their skills and confidence because we think everybody is ready to be employed and they're not.
James: Why people have what, what's happened with the confidence of people. So that's that.
James: I could not explain it. Do you think it's gone down? I do. Yeah. Yeah. I've wondered that. I do. You are telling me, I mean, you're much closer to this. Yeah. So
Mark: we,
James: so
Mark: we, so why is it we had, why do you say that? What, so we, one of the, um, drivers that we recruited for our vans, she was brilliant in her community.
Mark: She was one of the hub leaders that turned up every week and so confident in her community. And, and I offered her a job and she took it. And first week she was out. She was great. Second week she went back home one night and rang me and said, I can't do it anymore. It's just killing me. I'm too stressed.
Mark: Right? And it, we took her out of a bubble. She was confident in her bubble. [00:42:00] And I hadn't thought about it again to say, actually this is a bigger, wider world with new stakeholders and new rules, right? That we didn't take the time to actually help and
James: support her through. So would that have been different in the past?
James: Would, would there have been two people in the van? No, we've always had just one, but I'm just thinking years ago. Yeah. IES and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People work together. Maybe more, I'm just thinking what would give, you know, quite positive, someone, the confidence is, hey, come along, it's fine. You know, I've done this before, or you know, there's sort of,
Mark: and there is a good camaraderie 'cause they, yeah, because, because they're on the van on their own, but only for a short while.
Mark: Then they're in the hub with the community volunteers who are brilliant and really supportive. Yeah. And back at the warehouse they've got the rest of the team. Yeah. So there's a, but all of it was outside of their community and their kind of normality should we say.
James: So the, this word community, I, I think may well be very connected to confidence.
Mark: Yeah.
James: If [00:43:00] someone feels part of something Yeah. Then they feel more confident.
Mark: I'd agree.
James: You'd agree with that. And, but you said earlier that that the sort of view in Westminster is there is no community or some parts of West and you were very strongly opposed to that suggestion. So there is still a community, but it's not delivering confidence in the way that it used to.
James: Is that, no. So what's going on there? And,
Mark: and I suppose that, where do people go nowadays, James? 'cause it used to be church. What, what brings community together? And that's one of the things that we like because we bring community together. Right. But what else does nowadays? That's the question I feel because there's, we need reasons to connect.
James: Yeah. I think that's really interesting. 'cause if you went to church, you'd meet people you didn't normally meet. Yeah. Or might see in a shop or and say hello to them and you feel connected to people you wouldn't normally be Yeah. Connected to. But what replaces that? Well, you are not answering that question.
James: No. Apart from what you are doing. Exactly. And maybe what other
Mark: organizations So, so, so [00:44:00] that, but when you ask me about where, where is the kind of confidence in the communities, et cetera. I, I I think it's communities get confidence when they know each other and come together and meet each other so that they're more familiar.
Mark: Yes. So we, we, we see it. So, um, an ACA academic that we work with quite often, Dr. Meghan Blake up at Sheffield Uni, she will tell you that actually there are, there's statistical evidence to show that when you bring communities together through things like food clubs, even things like policing and crime go down because, um, actually it's not just about visibility, it's about knowing each other.
Mark: Yes. Yeah. So policing in itself, community policing works effectively because of the visibility, but actually if your community know each other better, then.
James: So, so, so making an effort to get to know Yeah. Each other is your message here really? Yeah,
Mark: absolutely. And, [00:45:00] and, and there need to be. So I, for a long time I was a, a, um, trustee of food cycle and they do community meals.
Mark: Right? Right. So, another great way of bringing people together. Food is always a great connector that way. It's almost like the glue that can always bring us together. Whereas, I guess religion used to be the thing, but I, I think food is a good way of doing that nowadays. Do you have any other ideas about how to
James: rebuild or create community?
James: Well, sports, maybe, I dunno. Sports is a good shout. Yeah. In hobbies and interest clubs, I don't know. Yeah. Youth clubs, it's who funds
Mark: them? Yeah. I, I, I, I suppose there's a lack of investment in community, so we seek. Quite a lot, but we, we've seen some really good local authorities that have changed things as well.
Mark: So, um, can you gimme an example? Harley Pool. Harley Pool approached us to come and open food clubs in their area. Okay. [00:46:00] And they were converting some libraries and some council owned spaces into community hubs. And they wanted bread and butter to go in to attract footfall from the communities. So one of the, um, so the central hub that they had had, um, they put stuff in there for, um, there was like a, a, a graphic design suite that the teenagers could come in.
Mark: Learn digital skills or there was a children's library full of nice picture books and craft center, and then there was a, um, kind of occupational health section for the elderly where they were showing them kind of hoists and, uh, kind of the bath where you walk in and fill it up and all, all this sort of stuff.
Mark: They, they really thought about what they were putting in there as well as a cafe obviously. Um, but they, they needed a reason for people to come and we were going to give them that catalyst to come and it it is just so they could come to you and get a
James: [00:47:00] bargain.
Mark: Yeah, exactly. And they did,
James: did they? They did,
Mark: yeah.
Mark: So
James: that made the rest of it sort of fall into place. Exactly, yeah. And they had the vision to see that that was,
Mark: yeah. So,
James: so, so you are the, in a way, you, you, you can be the catalyst of creating a community hub. Yeah. That. Um, yeah. But you're only one day a week though. What happens on the other day? Yeah, well, it doesn't
Mark: matter because it, what, what what you do once you start, once you've engaged and you can see the community coming through the door, then you can talk to them, right?
Mark: Mm-hmm. Face to face when they're there getting the bags and say, do you know tomorrow's ni and natta or toddler group or whatever? Uh, you know, the, the best ones we've seen, they, they've actually had whiteboards at the door as, uh, and on the whiteboard, it's like this week's activities and bang, bang, bang.
Mark: Really simple stuff like that. Yeah. Gets people talking, gets people interested.
James: There's no reason why every local authority in the country couldn't do that. Agreed. And it wouldn't be very high cost because they all got premises that are underutilized or libraries or whatever. Yeah. I'm getting behind you here.
James: I think this is good. [00:48:00] This is, this is good. I mean, I think, 'cause I, I really, I, I really feel an absence of community or, or I think that's something people really crave. They want that.
Mark: Yeah.
James: And, and so, and I would say I
Mark: don't feel the same, James, so you should come to one of our hubs and then you wouldn't, you would be inspired.
James: Yeah.
Mark: No, but it's, it is interesting.
James: I mean, I suppose I live in central London and Yeah. I mean, I've got friends and neighbors, but it's the, it is not quite the same as what you are describing. No. I mean, there is a local church. I go to it occasionally, but it's not, it's not like a regular thing for the whole community.
Mark: Yeah. It, whereas where we go now, people know their neighbors well. Right. And it makes a difference. Yeah. For so many reasons. You know, building friendships and um, just not being as isolated on your own, it's, it's important, you know, social isolation is more dangerous than smoking. Right. So. So if you don't go out and you isolate yourself, it's like smoking 20 a [00:49:00] day.
Mark: Is that the, what's the evidence for this? There's good medical evidence for this. What? The
James: medical consequences are the same. Yeah. There
Mark: are medical consequences for this.
James: Right. So there you go. That's interesting. Well, yeah, so, so I mean, there are lots of programs to help people stop smoking. Maybe there should be some to help people sort of connect in other ways.
James: Exactly. If that's a medical benefit. So what's next for the bread and butter thing and for you,
Mark: yourself, mark? So I, I think the big one for us at the moment, we are trying to convince local authorities and government, he says rolling his eyes that, uh, food clubs or he says, rolling his eye, well, this is a difficult process or you find it frustrating.
Mark: It's a difficult slow process. So why convincing government that actually the food clubs and community cohesion are really, really what, what are the
James: pushbacks then? I, I would, I need food clubs, community. I mean, I don't think they're that, but So what are they? I I,
Mark: I don't think that's, is it just inertia or what is it?
Mark: I I, I think [00:50:00] there's way too many things for them to sort out and we're not high enough of the agenda. Agenda.
James: I'm interested in creating a movement too. It's about philanthropy companies and these are companies that have at least 10% of their share shareholding held by foundation. Interesting. Um, ours is one, curiously, it's got 18% of our shares are held by the Reed Foundation.
James: And I'm interested in, because I want other companies to do the same because it is enabled us to do a lot philanthropically through our foundation. 'cause the company's paying dividends into the, yeah. So if, if more businesses or all businesses became philanthropy companies or Phil cos and the definition is 10% of moral shares in the foundation, they could support all sorts of initiatives like this.
James: And you don't need government at all. Yep. And, and, and that's because I feel sorry for these politicians in a way. They're always being asked to step up and, and I feel sorry for the taxpayer too, [00:51:00] but you know, the businesses could actually do that through the foundations. It's a tricky
Mark: one, isn't it? But David, the, uh, guy that's the data analyst that I was telling you about earlier, he, I asked him about what could government do to help?
Mark: And he said, well, actually I think it's beyond governments nowadays, and I think the corporates have gotta step up. So I think there's something
James: in that as well. Well, that's interesting to me. I think very interesting. 'cause I'm, I'm interested in philanthropy companies or Phil Cos, and I'm writing a book about this right now that's coming out in the autumn called Karma Capitalism, the Mission to change the DNA of business.
James: And the, the idea is that companies should become philanthropy companies where at least 10% of their shares are held by a charitable foundation. And in that way, you know, the people who work in the company work half a day or more for a charity and money from the company in terms of dividends paid out, can be recycled into, um, community type endeavors like yours.
James: Yeah, yeah. Uh, in the [00:52:00] areas they operate or, or it's other ways that the trustees of their foundation see fit. And this is a model we have at Reed. 'cause 18% of our shares are held by a charitable foundation. So we say, you know, one day a week we work for charity and the proceeds of the, uh, dividends have been used to support big give to raise money for thousands of other charities.
James: And to support organizations like yours who are seeking to do things in the communities where people live and work. Yeah. So, you know, I think it's, it's an opportunity to go beyond government and say, let's, let's sort this out ourselves. Yeah. You know, companies can become philanthropy companies, communities can come together and we can do this between us business and, and, uh, communities.
James: And I think we should really try and do that. So I am urging more people to become philanthropy companies. And you can look that up on phil code.org, not UK because, uh, I mean, it's not hard to do. And I think the upsides are huge. They have been for us both in terms of business, but also in terms of the wider, [00:53:00] um, benefits that you can bring to, to other organizations and people.
James: So there's something beyond government here, I think. I think there is. And yours sounds like, I mean, the logistics are obviously complex, but yours sounds quite sustainable, your model once you've got it going. Yeah.
Mark: So we, we've. So we always aspire to be self-funding. A typical startup type scenario in your head financially.
Mark: You get that seed funding, you get to critical mass, and the kind of day-to-day activities will cover the core costs as well as everything else. And we've had to concede and accept for now at least a blended model, because we didn't want to pass on all the cost of living pressures that were suffering to our members.
Mark: No. So we've looked for the past couple of years at price rises because we've been impacted [00:54:00] with them in many different ways, and we've chosen not to, but to do that as well, we've had to kind of reflect and recognize that means that it's gonna further delay when we'll ever become financially sustainable.
Mark: And it's, it's hard for us because we're not, we, we, we don't see ourselves as a charity. We, we, we, we feel that our members are our customers and we do the best professional job that we can. And if we do the best we can and give them the best customer service possible, all the social impact that we have is just a natural byproduct.
Mark: So do the best job you can. Don't focus on the value because that will come if you do the right thing.
James: Right. So when you say to become sustainable, so you are, you are relying on other people's funding or donations as well as the, the sales of the food. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. [00:55:00] So you, you want to get to a situation where you're not dependent on that or?
James: Exactly.
Mark: So we're, we're, we're kind of, so we, we've. We fund two thirds of our own overheads. Um, but now we're getting to a point where, um, we need a substantial growth to be able to continue that. So again, accountant talking, so each van is profitable. Do you call yourself profitable when you are a charitable organization?
Mark: I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you have to be to be sustainable. Exactly right. Yeah. And then pre COVID, each region was profitable. Post COVID, they're not. There's each one. What happened there then? Cost of living pressures. Just the prices. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is what's affecting everyone.
Mark: Everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but now we've gotta get that back and it's slowly coming back where we're getting kind of regional profits again, and we're focusing harder on that. Um, but then how many regions do we need [00:56:00] to cover? Core costs has gone up. Clearly, because actually there's not enough profit in each pocket now to cover the core.
Mark: So we we're pushing out further and further when we will become financially sustainable. So you, so you need to become
larger
James: to become financially sustainable? Curious. Yeah. Yeah. That's the model. Yeah. More scale and, and as I say,
Mark: this is like classic startups, right? Yeah. In anywhere, like an aim listing or something like that.
Mark: It's that proof of concept and getting to a point where eventually you have the product that becomes the cash cow and kind of covers all the costs.
James: Yeah, it's very interesting to me. I mean, you said we don't like to think of ourselves as a charity. You are using sort of very obvious business language and techniques here to run the organization.
James: I find that very reassuring actually, that, that there's sort of, and I think people in business listening would think that too, because I think there's, it might be completely misconceived, but there's a sense that, you know, maybe some charities don't apply those disciplines Yeah. In [00:57:00] their operational activities.
James: Yeah. But you, you clearly do, and you've made it a focus.
Mark: We have and, and we don't traditionally recruit out the third sector either. Right. So we, we look for commercial people and professional people. And I'm not saying that there aren't commercial or professional people within the third sector. No, but we are looking, you're just not looking for them.
Mark: We're not, we're, we're looking for kind of hungry people that are, are willing to roll the sleeves up and crack on with us and do the best professional job possible. And everybody that comes, they all say, oh, you know, I wanna give back and shared values and all the rest of it. And we say, that's fine, but you're gonna work hard.
Mark: Right. And do any of them walk out at that point Sunday? So, so our drivers, you know, I, I, I've, I've, I've spent many a year having the final interview with our drivers and saying to them, I know it looks great. I know you've done a trial date. I know that the sun was shining, but when it's three degrees in horizontal [00:58:00] rain, you've still gotta do this.
Mark: And when you wake up at six in the morning and you can see that it's snowing, or the M 60 shut, you've still gotta come in and you've still gotta do the do. And it's hard, and you'll be knackered and cold and uncomfortable. Please think about that before you come to us. And some of the guys talk about it as bootcamp.
Mark: The first six weeks they say it's like bootcamp. It almost reminded me of Shackleton's job ads going the South Pole when you're describing that. But it, it's management. But you've got lots of people curing up. But again, it's management of expectations, right? It's just like you've gotta have the right people coming through it.
Mark: But what I'm
James: hearing when you say that is not all. Difficulties or adversities you might have driving around the M 60. I'm hearing this is important. Yeah. What we're doing, and we need to deliver for our members because it matters. Yeah. And I think that's very motivational actually. Yeah. And that, that would make me wanna sign up.
James: So you are looking for people, I suppose, who are engaged in that mission. Yeah. Um, well, I think it's wonderful what you're doing and, and I'd like to, [00:59:00] um, uh, commend people to support you if we, if we can in all sorts of ways. Um, because it sounds like there are a number, whether it's getting involved in the community or whether it's supporting you financially or as a local authority, opening a new hub.
James: It's becoming a thing, James. Yeah. It's becoming a thing. And, uh, yeah. And I, I wish you continued to success with the thing. Thank you. And, and, uh, and, and I'd like to invite you back in the future to see how it's progressed. I'd be happy to come back. Thank you for coming in to talk to me today, mark. Um, I found that.
James: Now I've got a couple of questions for you that I always ask at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Jane might have tipped you off. No, no.
Mark: I, I, I've listened to you, James. I know what's coming. Oh.
James: You know what's coming. So, yeah. Well, uh, the first question I like to ask at the end Yeah. Um, it's related to the poster on the wall, and it's an important theme for me is what gets you up on a Monday morning,
Mark: mark.[01:00:00]
Mark: So I, I've, I've listened to your podcast and I've listened to some of the answers, and I've tried to think about this long and hard because one of the things that, so you asked me earlier about why did Jane and I start this? And it's fairness, it's inequalities that people can face for no fault of their own, even in the uk.
Mark: Right. Um, and that frustration that it's wrong and I feel like I, we can do something about it that drives me to get up on a Monday morning. So you, it's almost like an agitation in my head.
James: Yeah. You, I mean, I, people don't like unfairness. No. But you are feeling it really sort of strongly and that gets you up Very much so to go and do something about it.
Mark: Yeah.
James: Alright. That's, that's, I can see that in your eyes and I believe you. Absolutely. And then the, the next question is from my interview book, why You 101 [01:01:00] interview questions You'll Never Fear Again, and it's one of the fateful 15, as it's called, is, where do you see yourself in five years time, mark?
Mark: So I did think about this as well.
Mark: I, so one of, one of the things that we do obviously that isn't community-based is the food redistribution piece. And I think the food redistribution sector needs fixing somehow. It's, um, it's not fractured, but there's no kind of, it's not seen as a market sector. It's not seen as, uh, having any regulatory bodies or anything like this.
Mark: And I think that needs fixing somehow because, um, as much as we do all this great work and we rescue all this food from going to waste, et cetera, everything's done on a handshake. And that's not sustainable. And the redistribution sector itself needs to be able to have service contracts and tender processes [01:02:00] and fair codes of practice.
Mark: And it all sounds really dull, but actually this is about maturing a sector and having it recognized. And I think I want to go into that space because Well, you'd like to lead that endeavor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
James: so that's where I say I'm going. Well, that sounds wonderful. I wish you every success with that.
James: Thank you. Thank you very much for coming to talk to me. It's a pleasure.
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