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On this episode of all about business James Reed meets Matthew Jones, Founder of Bread Ahead, who discussed why the road to success isn’t always smooth. For him it was full of late nights, hard lessons, and a brutal turning point that forced him to rebuild his business and his life from the ground up.
When Matthew started making donuts at Borough Market, he never expected they’d become a worldwide sensation. The Founder of Bread Ahead gives us valuable business insight, and shares how he uses Instagram and raw storytelling to grow a devoted following.
Bread Ahead is more than a bakery, it's a brand built on resilience, realness, and obsessive attention to flavour.
If you’ve ever felt like giving up or dreamed of starting over. This episode is proof that rock bottom can be the start of something extraordinary.
01:59 the rise of Bread Ahead
04:21 innovative flavours and business strategy
08:28 Matthew's culinary journey
19:34 challenges and recovery
25:44 rebuilding and expanding
35:44 the power of social media
39:19 global expansion and future plans
43:00 resilience and learning from failure
51:47 the Bread Ahead Academy
55:57 the impact of weight loss trends on business
57:41 daily routine and work-life balance
Check out Bread Ahead’s website:https://www.breadahead.com/
Follow Bread Ahead on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bread-ahead/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
James: [00:00:00] Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
James: How'd you bounce back after hitting rock bottom? One man did that and more, both turning his life around and creating a viral enterprise, attracting customers from all over the world. Joining me today on All About business is Matthew Jones. The founder and CEO of bread ahead, an international bakery made famous among other things by its scrumptious creme brulee donor.
James: In this episode, we discuss Matthew's recipe for [00:01:00] success, how to bounce back when everything falls apart, and how he an international franchise from scratch.
James: Well, today on all about business, I'm really delighted to welcome Matthew Jones, head Baker and founder of Red ahead and in front of me. For those who can't see who aren't watching on YouTube, we have some amazing donuts. That I've just picked up from Bread ahead in Borough Market. And these are unlike, I, I have to say Matthew, unlike any donuts I've actually ever seen.
James: I mean, they're fantastic. Uh, also unique I think. And you have been, uh, I believe described as the donut king. So can you tell us a little bit about what we're looking at here and why people are queuing up outside your bakery in such huge numbers as I just witnessed?
Matthew: Yeah. Lovely to, well, thanks for having me here.
Matthew: It's great. And it's always lovely to be, you know, in the room with donuts when I'm talking about the business. 'cause they really helped me sort of [00:02:00] to connect with what we do. So I guess really well, my, my background, I was a chef, I was a restaurant chef. I worked in the Michelin world from really when, when I left school.
Matthew: So I've always been in the food industry. I, I love cooking, I love baking. And started off as a restaurant chef and then sort of meandered my way through the kitchens of London in the nineties, in the noughties, and then ended up in pastry and then bakery. And I opened bread ahead in 2013, and the donuts have become a thing, you know, they really, I believe why.
James: Yeah. Did you know that when you started, I mean, did you wanna make them? No.
Matthew: So what happened? How did that happen? So, we were merely baking away. First day we made donuts, we made 60, put them outside of Borough Market and they just sold, they, they just sold, you know, there was just, it was like giving sweets to children.
Matthew: You know, they, and then the next day we made 80, the next day we made a hundred. I can remember the first time we made over a thousand, and at the [00:03:00] time it was, that was back in 2014 and it was like the ceiling was coming in, you know, like a thousand. And then we made 2000
James: and just setting 'em in in one day.
James: From Borough Market. Yeah. Yeah. What are you up to? How many did you make a day now? Oh,
Matthew: it's what's, it's just, it's where we got, it's ridiculous. Yeah. Well, nice, nice. It's exciting. I like that story. So the, uh, all time record is currently 4,612
James: Right. Donuts in one day. So was that a particular time of year?
James: Is there a donut day? It
Matthew: was actually Donut
James: week. Yeah, it was the, it was the donut week. When's that? Yeah,
Matthew: the National Donut Week. It was, it was out National Donut Week.
James: When is this? Five or six weeks ago. Oh, right. I missed it. I'll have to wait from you. We smashed it. Did you? Okay. National Donut Week, everyone.
James: Yeah, that's one to look out for. So just to share my experience with you, I went to Borough Market. We're talking to each other in the afternoon. I went there at lunchtime. Mm. It is heaving with people. It is really busy at this time in the summer, you walk into Borough Market and you can see your bread ahead [00:04:00] outlets bakery pretty much from everywhere in the market.
James: It's very prominent. Yeah. You've got a great location I've observed, but a couple of things surprise me. One is that all the sales seem to be happening in the street, not inside today at least. There were, and people were queuing up on one side for bread and one side for donuts specifically. Yep. And the process was really efficient.
James: But when I looked at the donuts, I, I've never seen a range I saw from afar that said creme brulee. I thought that was gonna be a pudding, but actually it's a kind of donut. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, so, so you are the creator of these, gosh. Yeah. So just talk us through what is there in your sort of donut portfolio that people like and which do they like the most?
Matthew: Okay. So it started off with four flavors. We had chocolate, vanilla, caramel, and jam. So that was the, that's how we started. And, and Jams is sort a regular old school day. Homemade. We make fresh raspberries. Nice. We make it from scratch. I mean, we make everything from scratch. So caramel went from scratch, you know, we make all the crepitus here ourselves.
Matthew: So we started with four flavors when we opened in. Yeah, 2013. And we kind of [00:05:00] sat on that for years, to be honest. Probably three or four years. We just sat on those four flavors and then we kind of started to experiment a little bit. We introduced pistachio, then we did lemon curd, then we did a black current cheesecake, and we've just grown it over the years.
Matthew: The, the most recent addition has been the creme brule donut, and that has taken us to a completely different level altogether. It's actually half of our sales is that one product. Now I
James: please say I bought two of them. It's, I'll take one home with me.
Matthew: And it's just almost like, you know, we keep thinking, we've kind of reached a peak and we, we think we're gonna plateau out and we don't.
Matthew: We just keep peaking. It just keeps speaking.
James: That's interesting to hear. So you, you've sort of evolved by experimentation, it sounds. Yeah. But the other, I mean, the other thing I noticed is, I mean, it's a very efficient process You've got there, very good location. It's really well branded. You can see. But they, they're not cheap.
James: I mean, I paid 54 pounds for 12 donuts, but they're like a meal in themselves. So four 50 for a donut. [00:06:00] It's a different proposition altogether than what you might get at a service station or, yeah, totally. Yeah. So you must have been quite brave in going and positioning your product in the first place.
James: Yeah. Quite so far away from what people might expect. I'm,
Matthew: I'm thinking, I dunno. Yeah, it's, it's outside the box. It's a food experience. It's not just a donut, you know, this is something you're gonna eat and you're gonna remember that, you know, it's gonna take you on a, on a journey and it's gonna kind of push little buttons inside you that you may or may not be aware that you had.
Matthew: You know, it just sort of really does take you to another place. It's a journey. And we have people, I mean, just today in, in the Q at Borough Market, there will be people from all over the world. There'll be people from Mexico, from, from the states, from Japan, from, you know, you name it. There will be literally all over the world come to see us.
James: And that's 'cause your reputation is now worldwide. It's sort of, it's don bonkers. So it's a food experience. And was that very much your initial intention? Absolutely, yes. You, you went out with that in mind?
Matthew: Yeah. We [00:07:00] want to create flavors that take you on a journey. You know, if you look at flavor as a bandwidth and, you know, normal food, as we say, you know, it's sort of a, a normal sandwich has got quite a narrow bandwidth who sort of, hmm.
Matthew: You know, quite boring really. You know, but we take you out there, you know, it goes to the highs and the lows of sweetness and sour and we really take you kind of outside your comfort zone a little bit and then put you back in again.
James: Well, what does that mean in food? It's going outside your comfort zone.
Matthew: If it's acidic, it's gotta be really acidic. If it's lemon, it's gotta be really lemony. If it's a caramel, that's a really dark adult caramel right on the edge of the palate. So you really taste it. Yeah.
James: Okay. So the sort of flavor, there's a real strategy here. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. You've
Matthew: gotta, well, the thing is with flavors, you don't just want that sort of hi initial hit you.
Matthew: You obviously you want the initial hit, but then you want a kind of a secondary flavor that stays with you 45 minutes later, an hour later, the next day, that you're still that long the next day thinking about, yeah, you're still thinking about it.
James: Right? So you're getting into [00:08:00] people's heads in Yeah, deep a number of ways there.
James: Just the mouth, it's the mind. It's a deep journey. It's the mind deep journey. You've used that word journey and business and growing a business is, is also a journey. So,
Matthew: yeah, it's been extraordinary. I mean, you know, I started my life as a chef, you know, I was pretty chaotic as a youngster really. And all I really knew was how to get into work, how to get my apron on, and how to just behave myself in a kitchen, you know?
Matthew: And Right. So
James: let's go back to the beginning. So where did you start? Yeah. How did this journey begin? So,
Matthew: I, you know, I was very fortunate when I left school, or even while I was still at school, when I was 15, I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a chef. I wanted to work in the restaurant. I'd read down and out in Paris, in London, and I thought, that's me.
Matthew: I've
James: read that. I like that. That's me. I fit in George, your world. Yeah. Great. That's good. You know,
Matthew: I fit in somehow I told myself that I'm gonna fit into that world, so it already kind of made my mind up. I got my first job, it was a youth training scheme in Thacker's House in T Wales, which at the time was a brilliant restaurant.
Matthew: I was [00:09:00] really lucky that I found, you know, my first experience as a real young man, I mean a kid. I was 15. So you started work at 15?
James: Yeah. And the youth training scheme was a government scheme at the time to help young people get into work.
Matthew: Yeah. 27 pounds a week. That's what you got
James: paid? Eh?
Matthew: I had more money than I'd ever had in my life.
Matthew: Relative, I suppose. Yeah. Spent every penny of it and, but it was an amazing environment to learn in. We, you know, it was the first time I'd seen fresh Foir gras, good quality herbs. Turbo came in on the bo, you know, all the fish came in on the Bone Guinea FAU came in with the feathers on. It was a proper restaurant.
Matthew: And the, the chef there and the team were amazing. It was, you know, this was in 1986. It was when the Good Food Guide was around. The food scene in London, in the UK was kind of really small, you know, nothing
James: like today. I was around then. I remember it. So, no, it was a cheese
Matthew: sandwich, wasn't it? Yeah. A pub.
Matthew: You know, [00:10:00] it was, it was so basic and so undeveloped. And I was, uh, very fortunate to step into a career that was in an industry that was just just about to go on an incredible journey.
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James: What was it that set in a light, so to speak, or got that journey? I think for the industry as a whole, I think what changed
Matthew: back then, I think the Brits kind of woke up
James: enough, had been a broad thing, why do I have to eat like this? We started
Matthew: traveling, you know, I can remember the first time going to France with my parents and having like a baguette.
Matthew: It's a fresh baguette and it's like we'd had nothing like that. You know, even the fruit and veg you that you get in, you know, south of France, it was just completely different. You know, and it was just extraordinary really to, well then really from there, working in, thats, [00:11:00] I embarked on a career as a chef for 15 years and that's what you did.
Matthew: You know, it sounds
James: to me like you worked in pretty top establishments. Yeah. You said Michelin.
Matthew: Yeah, Michelin world. You know, two star Michelin, you know, the best, the best at the time. Gidley Park Hotel with Sean Hill. Then I went to Bibendum with Simon Hopkinson Beum in South Kensington. Was that Yeah, I remember that.
Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. I was there for two years. Loved it. And it was a great team of chefs there. I, I know them all still now, you know, we were sort of in touch and it was just a really tightly knit community in, in London of, you know, chefs. I mean, at the time you had Alistair Little, you had Rod Lee, you had Sally Clark, you know, and that, that was, she's still going strong.
Matthew: Yeah, I love that restaurant. That was kind of it, you know, Sally
James: Clark's restaurant in Kensington Show Street. It's brilliant.
Matthew: Well, it stood the test of time,
James: 40 years. She's celebrating this year, so, yeah, so that goes back to the 85.
Matthew: But I think it, what was really, you know, the real thing for me was when I worked in Binum and with, you know, Terrence Conran, who [00:12:00] was he?
Matthew: He was an extraordinary, you know, and a visionary, you know, because it was not people, he opened lots of restaurants at that time, didn't he? That was a big deal. He changed the scene. Right. You know, he really changed the London
James: scene. So people wanting more variety and partly Terrence Conrad, you'd say.
James: Yeah. He was, he and some pioneering chefs.
Matthew: Yeah. But, so Terrence was a, was a huge player. You know, he sort of brought that modern bistro cooking, you know, high-end bistro cooking. Really to London with Quigley knows Lepon. Let, yeah. I worked in those places. Absolutely loved it. You know, it was just nonstop.
Matthew: It was just 24 7, you know, London at that time in the, in the eighties and the nineties was just electric.
James: Right. So that was a really good foundational experience. Yeah. And so at some stage you must have started thinking, maybe I'm gonna start my own place. Or when you said you think about starting a restaurant, I mean you, 'cause you sort of branched out in a slightly different direction from what you'd been in.
Matthew: Yeah. I, I always had two jobs. Um, even when I was working in [00:13:00] the. In the restaurant, you know, I always had jobs on my days off, doing part-time work, anything. I was always of a restaurant.
James: Yeah. Oh, so you just love
Matthew: what you do? Working
James: for
Matthew: friends, doing sort of dinner parties, anything I could, I always just, you know, wanted to make money and just wanted to work as much as possible.
Matthew: Um. Right. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know. But, uh, that was my journey. I suggest
James: you love your work. Yeah, I do. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Love, love cooking. Well, I think that's really important. I mean, I love being busy. I love Monday's message. It's all about that, you know, finding something you
Matthew: love and, and then I, I, I ended up really in pastry being a pastry chef in the restaurants because really nobody else could do it.
Matthew: You know, it was just a sort of a corner of the, of the, of the restaurant kitchen.
James: Nobody else could do it.
Matthew: Yeah. Nobody was really interested in really, and I just liked it. People like eating puddings and pastries. I like bread, I love pastry. I love bread. I love British desserts. You know, good bread and butter pudding.
Matthew: Good crumble. So do I. Good Syllabo, you know, you like
James: cooking them or do just like eating them as well? All of it. All of it, yeah. The whole process. I like, I like the
Matthew: whole, I love the cleanliness of working with [00:14:00] Patisserie. Right. Then I, when I was working at Metso Bakery, which was a Conran venture, I ran the bakery there.
Matthew: They had a separate standalone bakery that was in, when was that? Where was that? Border Street. Right? 1997. 1998. And it was standalone bakery. And while I was working there on a, we made all of the, all the bread for the restaurants and I started supplying local restaurants. I thought, oh, this would be a good venture.
Matthew: So I got talking to the guys at Neil's Yard dairy shop. We su started supplying people like Zli Fish at the time and T Street Deli. I can remember all sorts really. And that really got me thinking. I thought, God, this is an amazing business. You know, I could just have a little bakery somewhere. And then I could start supplying people and that would be my business and that's, that's what I'm going to do.
Matthew: Well, it's a business to business. I do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really pretty much B2B. Yeah. Yeah. Um, while I was at Meso, I got, just got into a [00:15:00] conversation with the guys at Neil's Yard Dairy, and they told me about this thing called Borough Market that was being developed in 1998.
James: Oh, right. Was that when it was, yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. That's when it, it was, it was a fruit and veggie market in the Knights and a bunch of people had got together and did once a quarter, it was Randolph from Neil's Yard Dairy. It was Henrietta Green. They got together and they organized a sort of a food fair right down at Borough Once a quarter. Once a quarter, yeah.
Matthew: Right. And they said, why don't you Columba come along, bring some bread and see how it goes. Bring a table. And I was like, yeah, alright. Yeah. Let's see. Let's see what this looks like. Right. So I, Julie did, and actually outside Neil's yard dairy shop. In 1998. So it's pitched up with a table that's smaller than this table here, probably six foot across, just put a load of bread on it.
Matthew: How does, how does this Right. Okay. So four pounds sourdough. Yep. Olive bread. Yep. Great. You know, sold everything I took there and literally, I mean, and it was, [00:16:00] they just had the right audience, right? They had people who got it, you know, there was, you know, they, they wanted sourdough, they wanted decent, wanted inside
James: produce,
Matthew: and that was the, the beginning of Borough Market.
Matthew: And I was like, wow, that was incredible. You know? So you'd found your home in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. And that really was the pivotal moment. And I thought, I've, I'm gonna do this for myself. I'm gonna look for a premises.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: And sell shop.
James: Because
Matthew: I
James: was thinking the location is pretty important for this. I mean, you've got your, a really sort of receptive audience there.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: So that was my first business venture, uh, before Brett ahead. This was, you know, my, when I, when I was a youngster, right. So I had this idea and I thought, I'm gonna design, what was that called? It was called Flower Power City. Right, okay. And it was, you know, you like rhyming
James: names. Yeah, yeah, I did. It just sounded
Matthew: good.
Matthew: And I dunno where the name came from really. It just sort of flower power, I guess. I was a bit of a hippie and, you [00:17:00] know, I thought, oh, let's, let's do a bakery. It was spelled F-L-O-U-R then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah. And it, and it ripped. I mean, it, we opened, I opened on my own, literally just on my own with some flour and, you know, nothing like 500 quid and a wing and a prayer, really.
Matthew: And a, and van, were you getting up
James: at sort of three in the mornings? 24 7. So you are working really hard. Oh yeah. Yeah. I don't think that should be overstated or no. Sleep on the blocks.
Matthew: Rather, if I do a new venture, you sleep on the floor, I will sleep on the floor. I will literally live in that place until the business works.
Matthew: It is. So you've done that more than once. Yeah. Right? Yeah, I've done that twice. When
James: you say about how many days in a row are you sleeping
Matthew: on the floor? Yeah, I've, I've been through this journey twice. So flower power was the first flower power and then bread ahead was
James: the second, wasn't It was the second.
James: And on both
Matthew: occasions, you slept on the floor until, and I, on both occasions, I started from a very, very rock bottom. We'll come to that. Alright. Yeah. So flower power was a success. It was really good. [00:18:00] I like a month down the line, I employed a couple of bakers. I grew, started supplying. Restaurants around.
Matthew: And then borough market was once, once a quarter at this stage. Mm-hmm. Back in 1999, this would've been so once a quarter only. Mm-hmm. You know, it was brilliant. We'd turn up there, take a load of money. It was really, really good. And then some other markets started opening London, like farmer's markets.
Matthew: Yeah. So I started doing those. I employed more staff, I saved up some money. Then I moved premises to a big industrial warehouse unit down in near Mill Wall. Right. And things went really well. All good. Grew the business, kept growing. I was in my mid thirties. And Yeah, it was, you know, which seems it's funny really to talk about it because my life now is so different actually.
James: Yeah. [00:19:00]
Matthew: And I, but I was a pretty chaotic character. So
James: what happened then? What, what,
Matthew: you know, well, through that journey. I mean, the, the bit that I haven't gone through is, you know, as much as I have my lovely cup of tea in front of me now. Yeah. My companion at the time was not tea, it was booze, you know?
Matthew: Right. And I was a, a very frequent drinker. Right. You know, with no off button.
James: So you were sort of drinking all the time. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I suppose that that can happen when you work in restaurants and that world, I guess I can have it anywhere. Can't. Right. You know? Yeah. So you two
Matthew: alcoholics. Yeah. So
James: you discovered at that point that you didn't have an off button?
James: I
Matthew: did not have an off button, but somehow I made it work. You know, I just, through brute force really. Right. I was just so driven and so. Sort of single-minded about making it work. I would make it work. But God, I've made my life hard. You know? I really made my own life hard. So about the drinking, oh, I wouldn't bed.
Matthew: [00:20:00] So some,
James: so some people think, you know, addictions, you move from one, but, so work can be an addiction as well.
Matthew: Uh, yeah. Yeah. I think it can. Yeah. Exercise can, yeah. Many things can. Yeah. But, but at that point, you had this issue, but they're probably not quite so destructive. No. You know, um, so I kind of managed, you know, I kind of managed my life was successful.
Matthew: You know, I had probably 80 staff, you know, turning over a lot of money. Big business. Great. Um, and then the wheels started to come off. Right. You know, I was kind of, I, I was in my late thirties. I sort of thought, great, this is just amazing. I've got my business, I've got everything. And then I got approached by an investor, right?
Matthew: I thought, well, this could be really great. You know, he was very flattering and I sort of, and I got sucked in and I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, this, this is the right thing to do. I'm gonna take an investor Was an individual
James: or a company?
Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Individual. Yeah. LJ shall say, [00:21:00] called him lj. Called lj. Yeah.
Matthew: LJ came in and who's a serial entrepreneur and a very extraordinarily successful man. And you know, I have nothing but respectful to be honest, and, and he truly invested in the business and. The beginning was great. It was fine. Yeah. And then he sort of got wind that I was not, there was something wrong with Matthew, you know, it's like, this guy's turning up to meetings, late, drunk, whatever, you know, it's like,
James: oh, I see.
James: So he, he was aware of your, he was
Matthew: having none of it. He was having absolutely none of it. So he sacked me from my own business. Okay. I think
James: this is, I think I know this lj Yeah. I might even call him a friend, but, yeah. Yeah. So he sack you from your own business And
Matthew: he sacked me from my own business and my life fell apart and it was So you must had
James: a majority share then at this point.
James: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was, he sold out some shares to him.
Matthew: Yeah. And I was just so compromised and I, I was just in no fit state to run a business.
James: Mm.
Matthew: I was just, I was ruined.
James: Yeah. [00:22:00] I was
Matthew: broken. I was absolutely broken. I, I honestly, it was just like being in this corner. Suddenly I realized that I'd kind of lost.
Matthew: You know what I mean? And being, you know, for a very determined person whose focus on business had a great career and suddenly at the age of like 39, right? Being in this position, when you finally realize that you have just lost everything. And that was like, you know, I mean I had houses
James: as they call it.
James: Say rock bottom.
Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Brutal. It was absolutely brutal. I mean, I had nothing but debts and I, you know, it was just horrendous. And so I packed my bags, well, a bag 'cause that's all I had. And I went to see a mate of mine who lived up, who's got a farm. In, um, Northfield farm, it's in, um, ham up in Leicester.[00:23:00]
Matthew: Right. And Jan's really good mate. And he, he, he just took a look at me and he said, Matthew, you are like yellow. You are, you are just ill, you're just, yeah. You can't go on. You, you, you need to stop. Right. You're gonna die. Yeah. And, and funny enough, at that time, his friend, um, so
James: yellow goes with sort of liver failure, doesn't it?
James: Yeah.
Matthew: Jaundice. I'd had, i'd, I'd been hospitalized, I'd alcoholic pancreatitis. I, I mean, I was on death. All
James: right.
Matthew: Fairly dying. Yeah. I was like, really like fat around my neck. I've got this old photo somewhere of myself and it's just like, you know, right. And everything fell apart. Marriage, family, everything.
Matthew: Everything, everything. And so I went to stay with Jan for a weekend and, but Jan's farm was staying. Clarissa Dixon Wright, who's um Oh yes. Who's a recovering alcoholic. She sort of had a chat with me and she said, why don't you come along to one of these, these meetings I go to? She said, we might find that quite [00:24:00] useful.
Matthew: And I did. And really, that's really when my life started. Right. And it was extraordinary. So I ended up staying in y spare bedroom for nine months. I didn't go back to London and made myself busy on the farm. So you
James: helped on the farm?
Matthew: Yep. And then we had little, we had a little tea house there, so we started doing some baking
James: and And you started drinking at this point?
James: Yeah. Yeah. I just stopped. So you just managed to switch off literally
Matthew: one day to the next. Right. The moment I stepped foot on that farm, that was it. Right. And I realized, you know, so it was, um. And that's been the
James: case since.
Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I haven't touched the drop in 15 years. I've been sober before. FF is, yeah, it's fantastic.
Matthew: Is quite extraordinary to say it. Really? That was Clarissa Dixon, right? Oh, but she's died. She's dead. She, she died a few years ago. Yeah, I think I remember that. But she really did help me on my way. Good old Clarissa. Yeah. But yeah, so then it was during that time I was sitting up at Jan's table in his, in his kitchen.
Matthew: And the first thing I thought, you know, I [00:25:00] got my head clear and I thought, right, I better sort this out 'cause I think I've got another child. I've got it in me, you know, I can do this again. Yes I can. I'm gonna do this again. Well, yeah. I'm not going, you've got
James: another opportunity. Yeah. I'm not
Matthew: gonna go and be a pastry chef again in the, in the kitchen.
Matthew: In a, in a Michelin world. I'm not gonna do that. So somehow, I dunno how I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna open a new business. Um, where'd you start? Where'd you start with that? Well, that's a good,
James: that'd be my next question. Matthew, where'd you start? So you, so I started you at the beginning. You have you got any money, I suppose at this point?
James: No, no debt in the revenue. So, so where do you start? You've decided you want to do this, you're piece of paper, you're starting from a tough place. Yeah. Piece of paper. We start with a piece of paper.
Matthew: So then I drew this word bread. I, I've still got the book at home. I've got a little notebook. Yeah. I, I love sketching and drawing and I do that a lot still.
Matthew: And I wrote down the word bread and then I drew a little arrow after it and I [00:26:00] just bred ahead. That's, that's the name. That's gonna be the name of the business.
James: Just so you drew a piece of bread with an arrow and that became
Matthew: bred
James: ahead. Yeah.
Matthew: That became the name that just came outta nowhere. Yeah, it came outta nowhere.
Matthew: I love that. I've, I've
James: heard that before. We've talked to other people about where's your brand come from. Yeah. That's what, they have this sort of moment where they just decide
Matthew: and yeah. So that was that. So you had your brand, so you
James: knew you were gonna do something bread and it was gonna be forward looking.
Matthew: And then I thought, you know, one thing I really wanna focus on is education. 'cause I, I just like to teach people stuff, you know, I just really liked to have people in the room showing people how to make bread. And I think I found it quite healing really, to have people just around a table and talk to 'em about making bread.
Matthew: Um, so start to think, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. So this was like six months into being at Jan's place. Um, and a friend of mine, Olivier, who used to work for me, he wanted to also set up his own bakery.
James: Mm-hmm.
Matthew: So I, he was a great [00:27:00] guy, Olivier's smart, he's, you know, young French guy and he, um, yeah, he found a premises in Biy that was a disused bakery.
Matthew: So I thought, great Olivier, well do I, I'll give you a hand to open up and I'll bake some bread in your place. Sleep on the floor. So I'll come back to London basically. Mm-hmm. And then I'll take my bread to Borough Market and I'll sell it on a market still. Um, under Bread Ahead. This is bread ahead now.
Matthew: New name. It was a two year, two two years between Flower Power and Bread ahead. Yeah. And you know, borough Market knew me. I knew them well. Happy me back. Yeah. Happy to have you back. You doing a new venture? Great. Good to see you. You actually, you look a bit better, Matthew. Actually you can, you're not, you're not spending the entire time in the pub.
Matthew: Yeah. God must have been disappointed but
James: everyone else was pleased. Yeah. And
Matthew: it was actually really nerve wracking. I remember the first time. It's really strange thing if there's any listeners out there, you know, 'cause there probably will be [00:28:00] it. It's really weird right when you're in early recovery, like being back in the same environment.
Matthew: 'cause you feel really vulnerable. I bet. Yeah. And it's funny, you know, and then, then because you used to go into that pub or Yeah. And you'd
James: have people you knew couldn't trust yourself to be near that. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. And, you know, and I just found the courage to do it really. And I did, um, before I knew it, I'd got myself a little flat back in London and Olivier was, you know, I was, I was baking stuff there, taking the lower market.
Matthew: So he a
James: business partner or he, or? No, he was, no, he's got his own business. So he has his business. And you were using his bakery to
Matthew: make your bread? Yeah. It was kind of a temporary solution until I, until you got your own one. Got myself back on my feet.
James: So he was a supplier in a sense.
Matthew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still get on with him now and, you know, you know, Olivier, we used to go drinking together.
Matthew: I mean, God, you know, it was, and you know, we've, we've both grown up, you know, right. Big time.
James: Did you have coffee together now? And so, yeah. Yeah. Cup
Matthew: of tea, you know. Yeah. Um, so then I eventually [00:29:00] found the space in Borough Market where we are now. Actually, it came available and I converted that. That's a great space, isn't it?
Matthew: Yeah.
James: So you must've been pretty pleased when you saw that. Was it, what was
Matthew: it before? It was just storage for fruit and veg, was it actually? Yeah. Potatoes
James: and carrots and onions and because it's very immediately vis visible.
Matthew: Yeah. Well, when we moved there, it really wasn't, I mean, the, the market like, you know, 13 years ago now, uh, 12, yeah.
Matthew: 12, 13 years ago, the market was actually much quieter. So especially during the week, the sort of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, were pretty, you know, tumbleweed down there. The Saturdays are always big.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: Um, it's not like that now, is it? Oh God, it's just so busy. It's a huge destination now. Massive. Yeah.
Matthew: International, you know? Yeah. So, so you really have landed in the right place? Yeah. And it's been the heart of the business really ever since we opened. So we opened, originally we were selling bread on the market stall. Mm. And then about six months after we opened in Borough, we started doing the bakery courses.
James: And your [00:30:00] school 'cause Yeah. You have a bakery under school.
Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a big thing. I mean, this school has grown. You said you liked to teach. Yeah, so we ran short courses, three hours, like workshops, really designed for the home baker that wanted to improve their skills. Right. Um, before you know it, we started doing little school groups, which was really nice to have like, you know, sort of 14, 15 year olds in.
Matthew: And I, I found myself talking to 'em about my career path, you know, about, you know, I was so fortunate really when I was at school, I just knew what I wanted to do. Yeah. And, um, that was really rewarding. That really sort of helped me, you know, to, um, on my journey with baking and bread. And then we just grew and bur just got busier and busier.
Matthew: We employed more people. Um, I mean, I used to be in the bakery 24 7. I was the first probably five years. You stay up there
James: a lot.
Matthew: I, well, I had a flat, I literally next to the bakery. Right. And my life used to consist of a little triangle that went [00:31:00] between my flat at the bakery and Monmouth coffee. Right.
Matthew: And that was it. That's what I did for like a couple of years. Yeah. Um, so this
James: is a really big commitment, a huge effort. You put it business
Matthew: 100% from cash flow, no loans, no partners, no debt, no loans, no partners, no debt, nothing. No. And it's still the same
James: today. So you are, you owe wholly Own it. Yep. With my wife.
James: You've bought shares with your wife. Fantastic. Yeah. So that's from cash flow. Cash flow, investment reinvestment, revenue investment, we call it in re that's what, that's how we've grown our business. Well, it's a real business, you know, I
Matthew: think it's, that's real. Um, and we had a couple of sort of real milestone events, I suppose on the way.
Matthew: You know, we, we were always recognized for doing sort of profoundly good food because we do, you know, I mean mm-hmm. That's my background. I mean, I was a, came from the Michelin world, so it was all about flavor and do it properly or, or don't bother sort of thing, really. Mm-hmm. You know, simple range. You know, we don't, we don't do too [00:32:00] many things.
Matthew: Probably 12 real key products. We do villa wri, sourdough bread and donuts and the teaching. Um, we opened a couple of locations since 20 17, 20 18. We opened on Pavilion Road in Chelsea. That was right. It's been very, very good for us. Um, we opened in Wembley, we opened a really big bakery up there. How's that?
Matthew: Uh, it's amazing
James: actually. Wembley is like a new city. Yeah. All around the stadium, all those new flats. Yeah. It's a huge area, isn't it? It, and I
Matthew: think we've been very fortunate in So how many outlets have you got now? Five now in, in London. Five, uh, south Kensington, one in Bromley. But we've been in a very fortunate position that generally we've been helped by landlords.
Matthew: So they, landlords have given us, you know, it incentivized us to move there, given us capital com contribution. They like being there. 'cause it brings people
James: into their neighborhood, I suppose. Well, we're a, we're a quality bag. The smell of baking. It's good as well, isn't it? Yeah,
Matthew: yeah. And we still, we bake on site.
Matthew: It's proper baking. We don't have a freezer, we don't freeze things at [00:33:00] all. Um, and we've kept it very natural and real. But I understand you're also setting up outside of the uk, is that right? Yeah. So I've heard this, but tell, tell me more. What, what, what are you doing? So what a journey. So, you know, it's, it's sort of given me goosebumps really to talk about it.
Matthew: But, you know, it was always, it always became apparent when we were down at Borough Market that we had a following. You know, from, from far and wide, you know, people would be people turning, people all over the world coming Yeah. From, you know, from America would sort of rock up and say, Hey, you know, I'm not gonna try and do an accent 'cause I'm terrible.
Matthew: No. Yeah. But, um, you know, and they'd say, Hey you guys, you are really, you know, we've seen you on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. And, and they would just love our stuff, you know, so during, it was actually during COVID, now COVID, I mean that's a whole chapter of a book in itself. COVID was a, was just this all over the place thing for us.
Matthew: We, we'd just opened Wembley, our biggest site. [00:34:00] We'd gone massively over budget. We had to find, literally overnight a ton of money that we didn't have. Um, we had to refund six months bookings for the school in advance. We had Oh, 'cause you couldn't deliver the courses. No. Shut it down. You would've paid and you had to send the money back, send it back.
Matthew: You couldn't do it virtually for that? No, we did some a lot. There was a lot of love around so, you know, a lot of forgiveness and you know. Yeah. But I think just, you know, the first kind of couple of months of COVID, nobody knew what the hell was going on. We didn't think it was gonna last for two years.
Matthew: No, no. I remember it. Yeah. I was
James: in exactly the same situation.
Matthew: Yeah. We were thinking, oh, this is gonna be, what are we gonna do next? Yeah, we'll be, yeah. By the summer of this will be out the way, no chance. Um, but it ended up being really good. We ended up being busier than ever. 'cause we were kind of the only thing open.
Matthew: We didn't close for one day. You kept your bakeries open. Yeah, I kept everything open. Did you? Yeah. 'cause I, I, 'cause I love being open.
James: So what you just said, we, because I suppose you're a food supply. Yeah. [00:35:00] Essential. There was rules
Matthew: saying you had to close. Yeah. Bread was huge. Yeah. We were posting flour out, we were doing online classes.
Matthew: Our Instagram went. Crazy. Uh, went from like 60,000 followers to 200,000 in six weeks. We did, we developed the online platform for teaching baking, which is something we'd always wanted to do, but just said we're too busy, so we had to, so we did. So you've mentioned Instagram
James: twice or so. Tell me social media a big deal for you.
James: Massive. So how does that work? And I, and I think you do it yourself. I
Matthew: do
James: all
Matthew: of it myself. You do all of it? Yeah. So what do you do? What's the tip period? I just, to Instagram, I make these silly little videos of myself talking about the product. Typically, I'll be down at Borough Market saying, Hey everybody, I'm just down on the bakery store.
Matthew: Down at the bakery store here. Yeah. And I'm eating a donut and it's really delicious. Why don't you come down and, uh, have one? Right. I keep it. How often do you do that? Every day. Yeah. And I, I don't edit anything. I keep it So you have a
James: daily post?
Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes six times a day, you know. [00:36:00] Really? Yeah.
Matthew: I can really push it and you know, I like content that's really raw. Right. Because I like, you know, live music or opera and you know, 'cause it's real. Yeah. Even if it's, even if I make mistakes, I mean you like gonna enjoy
James: you don't sing on your Instagram.
Matthew: No. I
James: just wanted to understand that. Never. So the opera is what you
Matthew: enjoy going to watching?
James: I do, yeah. Okay. Right. We don't deliver Baker's the opera baker. Yeah. Oh, right. So, so that's become, that's become a big part of your marketing. Yeah. Huge. Huge. But you were saying, so you were aware that people were coming from all over the world to enjoy your donuts and Yeah. And red and, and then you thought what, in terms of expansion?
James: Yeah. You said you were on a journey that you buy. We,
Matthew: we got approached go to themed by a family from the Middle East. Um, so since then we have opened in Dubai. And so what,
James: they're like a partner of yours? Uh,
Matthew: franchise partner, yeah. Okay. We have Oh, so you've gone into franchising. Yeah. [00:37:00] Internationally.
Matthew: It's really the only way. So they use all your branding? Yeah, we train them. We send our guys, send a team out there when you get a cut of what they sell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, yeah. Yeah.
James: We're interested
Matthew: in
James: franchising because it works
Matthew: really well. Yeah, does it in your, in your space, you've gotta find the right partner.
Matthew: And we, we were lucky we found the right, the right people to do this. You know, because
James: I remember years ago, one of the, I dunno whether I should dare mention them in this, in this podcast, but Krispy Kreme, you know, they were doing franchising in the uk.
Matthew: Well, I mean, they've,
James: yeah, yeah.
Matthew: I mean, they're mean,
James: they're a huge company, aren't they?
James: Yeah, there's billions. But they, but they did franchise, didn't they? Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. It's the only way to scale up real sort of speed of growth, right? Yeah. Um, I mean it's, yeah, it's, it's, I I'm not a Krispy Kreme eater myself, but, um, I didn't think you would be looking at your donut. Yeah. Kind of. It's pure sugar, isn't it?
Matthew: But, um, it's not real flavor.
James: No. Anyway. No, no, I, that's why I didn't really wanna mention them, but I only mentioned 'em in the context of franchising. Because they obviously did that quite successfully a ferry. I mean, they kind of,
Matthew: yeah.
James: So you see that as a strategy for you. [00:38:00] So are you looking for other potential franchise?
James: I mean, we are, yeah. Yes. Would a benefit of this discussion be if you're interested in becoming a Bread Ahead franchise, send me an email contact. So if you wanna be a bread ahead franchise, who do you contact?
Matthew: You just send Matthew matthew@breadahead.com. An email and say, Hey. But it's, you know, well, why not?
Matthew: Actually, I can see that, you
James: know, that could be a good living, you know, you have a good business being a Bread Ahead franchise somewhere. Yes, franchise. Yes you do.
Matthew: Yeah, there's, there's good margin in the product and it's, you know, it's funny to say that really, but it's, you know, we're looking for the sort of people who are passionate about our business.
Matthew: That's what's really important. You don't want somebody who's just thinking about how much profit can I make from
James: this? No. People who love baking and the the things that you, like I, I imagine, yeah. They need to share the values.
Matthew: Yeah.
James: Yeah. So do, do you have sort of defined values? I mean
Matthew: Yeah. I mean, do people know what they are
James: in the business?
James: Yeah, but I think, what are they?
Matthew: I think it's just a love of natural food. Is that what you say? Yeah. You know? Yeah. A good sourdough baking.
James: Mm.
Matthew: And I think, you know, well since then, we've, we've [00:39:00] actually got a partner in the, in Philippines, so we're opening in Manila this year, in September.
James: So that's another franchise.
Matthew: Yeah. Which is a big thing for us, actually. Yeah. Wow. Um, I mean, you could end up with a lot of these
James: thousands. Thousands, is that the ambition?
Matthew: Um, yeah.
James: Right.
Matthew: Yeah. I would like that.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah, yeah.
James: All around the world.
Matthew: Yeah. And it's really exciting because, I mean, the thing I love is I love traveling and I, you know, I've been, I've traveled extensively.
Matthew: Um, it's really nice to be. You know, to go to a place, to a city and to not be a tourist, to actually have a business there. Yes, it's so relatable and you just have a really different relationship with the city and the people who live there. But you know, it's such a transferrable skill. I mean, I would love to be, you know, especially the bakery school part of it, because people already come to us from all over the world, so it's very easy for us to set up a bakery school in.
Matthew: You know, you kind of know
James: you've got customers
Matthew: in
James: these Yeah, we do in these geographies. Because you, [00:40:00] they're coming to you already, is that what you're saying? But
Matthew: it's so, you know, from Mexico City to Tokyo to, you know, it's a baking is a global phenomenon.
James: Do you do franchises in the UK as well, or are you sticking to No,
Matthew: I don't think, you know, the uk we just do it ourselves, you know, so
James: yourselves, so the strategy to do it yourselves in the UK and franchises outside.
James: Yeah. Right.
Matthew: Yeah. There's, you know, there's, so you've got the
James: Middle East. Where in the Middle East are you going? Dubai you mentioned. So,
Matthew: uh, we are open in Saudi in, um, Dubai next year. So they're already open? Yeah, they're open. We have 11 bakeries there. 11 in Saudi. Yeah. Yeah. So Saudi and Dubai, UAE next will be Egypt, right?
Matthew: Yeah. Huge foodie communities in these, in these countries.
James: Yeah, I bet.
Matthew: And it's, um. Yeah, there's, there's so much. So Have you been out to Saudi? Yeah, I go all the time. Yeah, I was there. I was there back in March. Yeah.
James: Right. Is the audience the same? I mean, do they like that? Do eat the same things some people see in borough markets?
James: It's the same. It's the same people. It's, and is it the same products? I [00:41:00] suppose I'm asking. Same. So that's
Matthew: brilliant. Yeah, it's extraordinary. Yeah. And then likewise, when I'm in, in, if I'm in the, in the bakery in, uh, Chelsea, I'll see guys, oh yeah, I saw you in Jeda. You know, and the world has become such a, you know, it's so much smaller now, isn't it really?
James: Well, that's very interesting though, 'cause you, you're establishing a brand online in a sense, or social media, TikTok, Instagram, and then you're repeating it in different parts of the world. Yeah. Everyone knows what it is and what they can get. And it's very immediately recognizable and distinctive, isn't it?
James: But I think the, the world that's very interesting world
Matthew: is, is ready for new brands. I mean, if you look at, you know, in, in my childhood there was, you know, there was McDonald's and there was KFC and there was, you know, and yeah. I mean, it's not great, is it? You know, there's, there's, you know, I mean, I know this have purpose and I've been around a long time and Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. But I think, I think it's nice to go somewhere else. I think there's time. I think it's just the, I think the market's ripe for new brands for, you know, if you think of companies like a Arabica Coffee, you know who Yeah. From [00:42:00] Japan. I mean, the amazing brand really focused on what they do. Really successful.
James: So, so the world is ready for new brands. You are creating one. Yeah. You've created one, you're creating one that is growing fantastically. What, what sort of advice would you give to someone who's thinking, who's got their piece of paper, like you had a few years back? One, just starting to write something on it.
James: How to think about a new brand or a new position in a market. If you wanted to start out as a young entrepreneur
Matthew: Mm.
James: Or indeed a middle aged entrepreneur wants to have another go.
Matthew: Yeah. I think what,
James: what would you suggest as, as a way, just a thought process, really. Any advice for people.
Matthew: Yeah. It's extra.
Matthew: It's a, it's a funny thing 'cause you know, when I was in the early stages of setting this up, did I think that we'd become a, a really big international business? No, I didn't. Um, but I think most importantly, I learned from very good people. You know, when I was, when I was 15, 16 years old, I was in those kitchens.
Matthew: I was learning, and I gave 100% of [00:43:00] myself to what I do. You know, if I was told to be at work at six, I would be there at half plus five, I would be, I would be in there on my days off, I commit 100% to what I do. It sounds like more than a hundred percent actually. Yeah. It's, and that's not an easy thing to be around for, you know?
Matthew: Um.
James: Yeah. What you mean as a colleague of yours?
Matthew: I think for anybody, you know, because it's, you know, I'm the guy I work seven days a week. I, I have no issue with that. Would I want my guys to do that? No. I, so we sort of live in this quite, kind of, sort of quite hypocritical world really. I think people who, who are pioneering in businesses because what they say and what they do or their expectations of others can be at times quite unreasonable.
Matthew: And I've got What do you mean what hypocritical though? Well, you know, because I wouldn't want anybody to work seven days a week for me. I'd actually be annoyed. I'd be, yeah. I'd be angry with myself, but somehow I'm prepared to abuse myself almost to do that. I'm, I will do that. You don't feel
James: like abuse to you though.
James: No. It feels completely natural's. Why do Because you like it. [00:44:00] Yeah. Mean you're enjoying it.
Matthew: Are you or not? I love it. That's what I can sell. That's why I'm sensing
James: love. So why would you stop doing something you love because it's on seventh day or something? Precisely. I mean,
Matthew: but it's, you know, I wouldn't want other people to do that because I would, I would feel that it's wrong, but it, you know, every single day I get up, I'm looking forward to going into work.
Matthew: I look forward to it. I, I, so, you know, and I think partly is that because I not a day goes past when I don't remember what I had, what I lost. And that was brutal. I mean, it was in terms
James: of your previous Yeah. Flower power. Yeah. 'cause its,
Matthew: it's not only losing the business, is it, you lose your confidence, you lose your, you know, you lose your family on the way you lose, you know, you lose things that you will miss.
Matthew: Big things.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: And some of those things you can't get back. Some you can.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: And there are, you know, that's hard. So when you are presented again with an opportunity, or I was. I took [00:45:00] 100%, you know, of the opportunity. And I don't wanna miss out on that because I, I know the value of it.
James: Well that's a powerful message for everyone, you, myself, and everyone listening because
Matthew: no, often I share that actually.
Matthew: I mean, it's probably been in that, in such an articulate way, but maybe this is just the right environment for that.
James: So, well, I'm really pleased you did because I mean, that's true of us all in life in in a sense. Yeah. And, but what you've had is it's shown to you very starkly through what happened. Oh yeah.
James: So that's what I'm taking from your, sort of, from your remarks. It's very
Matthew: raw and it's much easier, I think, you know, when you've sort of crossed certain milestones in a business, you know, it's, it's very difficult to sort of talk with confidence about things when you're three weeks sober, you know, and it's all really fresh 'cause nobody really takes you seriously.
Matthew: But now people do, you know, and they take me seriously, which is really nice and I've earned that. So I suppose going back to your, you [00:46:00] know, you said, what would you advise to a young entrepreneur? You've gotta stick it out that you don't get success on day one, but you've gotta be resilient. And that doesn't matter if it's sport or if it's playing a musical instrument or if it's, you know, learning a craft.
Matthew: You've gotta be prepared to do the 10,000 hours 'cause this is what it takes and more.
James: My last guest on this podcast told me it took him five years to get his first sale. Wow. And he's got a fabulous business now. Yeah. And he's growing, growing it all around the world. I think that's for, I think that's almost a record five years.
James: But he Yeah, he really demonstrated what you just said. Mm. So I mean, but this is un, I mean, I, in a way I'm feeling you are here and he was, because you have this quality and unusual quantities, perhaps, you know, being persistent and not quitting and sleeping on the floor. Where does that come from? Or when is it innate?
James: Or did you I a decision or what is it? I mean, where does that come from?
Matthew: You know, I think when, when I grew [00:47:00] up, I mean, we, you know, I liked the world I grew up in. I was really, you know, born in 1969. Great music scene, you know, the time, the Sex Pistols and the Clash and you know, and it, it just all seemed so good.
Matthew: Oh, you liked them? Well, I liked The Clash. I
James: remember gonna see them live. Yeah, they were very good. Wow.
Matthew: Wonderful. You know? No, they were brilliant and so raw and so honest, and just so unapologetic, you know? And so that gave
James: you energy, did it?
Matthew: It did, yeah. Yeah, it did. And then just things, I suppose my memories was things like my holidays with, with my parents.
Matthew: Were camping, you know, we slept on the floor, we made fires. We, we had our food from tin plate, you know, from tin cups. We, it was very, very basic. I love that. You know, I love it. I love we. Do you still go camping? No. Why not? I, how she liked it? Or your wife doesn't like it? My wife. My wife. My wife would not put her foot into a tent, wouldn't you?
James: No. I take my [00:48:00] family camping a few times. No, but I haven't done it recently. You're making me think I'd like to do it again.
Matthew: Yeah. I think, you know, just buying
James: all the kits more expensive than staying in a hotel though now. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. Camping's really changed. I mean, back in the day it was, I think it was, you know, important to be actually really uncomfortable and wet.
Matthew: Yeah.
James: Yeah. Um, but you did all that and you enjoyed it. Yeah. So are you saying, what are you saying that gave you a certain sort of resilience? I think being prepared to live with very
Matthew: little, you know?
James: Yeah. Yeah. You didn't need much and you knew you could enjoy yourself and get on with it.
Matthew: Yeah. And I think that's one of the lessons I learned about having to restart my, not only, see I didn't only restart business, I restarted my life.
Matthew: That was a thing, you know? Um. And to do that, you've, you've gotta be, you, you know what it tastes like to have, you know, less than very little, you know, but you did have a good friend that Ja Yan Y's a ya's a a gem.
James: Yeah. And so that's, he's, so it's important if people are feeling in, in that, they're in a sort of [00:49:00] crisis to think about who they can reach out to us suppose, because there will be people I imagine, who come and
Matthew: there's not very many No, no, no.
Matthew: But they will be, they're out there. But they're, they're rare, you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you really learned, you know, I remember somebody said to me when, um, when everything went wrong back in, uh, it was 2009 was the year when the, when my world caved in. And, uh, somebody said to me, you, you'll find out who stands up and who sits down.
Matthew: You know? And not very many people stand up. Right. Sadly, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
James: But one did at least. But I
Matthew: really did take the piss, you know? I mean, I was,
James: yeah,
Matthew: I was, I was totally Well, people aren't
James: themselves in that situation. No, I was unmanageable, you know?
Matthew: Totally. I mean, it was chaotic, you know?
James: Yeah.
Matthew: And it was a funny thing, 'cause you know, back, going back to bur going back to early days of, um, of Bread Ahead, you know, occasionally I'd, I would sort of see an old customer from Flower and they'd sort of look at me in this way that they were expecting me to [00:50:00] be.
Matthew: And, and I, and I'd, and that stopped happening. Right. That doesn't happen anymore, you know, that hasn't happened, you know? Come on. I've been, I know the new you. No, I've been cleaning sober for many years now and, you know, I, I've, I, you know, I've become, I think, really quite a different person through that
James: journey.
James: So do you mentor people and, and do support people in their journey? Yeah, I do. Yeah. Do, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do sobriety journey.
Matthew: Yeah. I go to meetings. I, I have my friends in recovery a lot, actually. Pretty much most of my friends are actually in recovery. Right. And it's quite a common thing in the chef world, you know?
Matthew: Yeah, I imagine so. Um, yeah. There go to one or the other, I suppose. Well, either they're dead or they're in recovery. In recovery. Is that right? Yeah. Because it's an
James: extreme
Matthew: lifestyle. Very. And I think it, you know, I think it attracted a, you know, especially that sort of world, the mission and world, it was very, it was almost glamorous to be sort of, you know, overtired and overworked and, you know, it was all a bit silly.
Matthew: Really? Yeah. And it did attract a certain types. Is it still like that? No, it's really cleaned up, you [00:51:00] know? Right. It's become much more sort of human. So it's different. Yeah. Different era. Yeah. And you know, the laws have changed, you know, you know, restaurants now have HR departments and they have to abide to the laws, you know, you can't make people work 70 hours a week, you know?
James: Yeah. Yeah. No, quite. So what's, what's next for you then? I mean, you're obviously expanding with the franchises. Yeah. I mean, what are you gonna do with your school, which I think is a wonderful thing.
Matthew: The most recent addition to the, um, to Brett Headss, you know, educational, um, side has really been the academy.
Matthew: So this is long in the making. Took us six years of, um, of, of sort of design because it was always, you know, on the, on the, on the cards, we really wanted to design a. A program where young people can come in and learn. Well, not really just young, but anybody can come in and learn to be a baker, and not just a baker, but an artisan baker in our field, which is, you know, it's about sourdoughs, it's about natural yeast, it's [00:52:00] about Ry croissant.
Matthew: You know, it's a particular type of baking and it's really the one that's growing. That's the, you know, if you look at the successful bakeries in London, be it dusty knuckle, or be it toad or be it, you know, there's, there's a bunch of us and this is the stuff we do, you know? Mm-hmm. It's, it's those sexy for catches, the sourdough pizzas.
Matthew: That's, that's our thing. Yeah. You know, um, that's what we teach. Are you just creating
James: lots of future competitors doing that?
Matthew: Ah, the market's so deep. Yeah. You know, and I'm fine, fine with that. It doesn't worry about Yeah, you fine. It's fine that you're
James: generous spirited
Matthew: in. Yeah. Look, there's, there's, you know, I'm not gonna own bakery worldwide, you know what I mean?
Matthew: It's not gonna happen, you know? Fair enough. There. So, so,
James: so if someone wants to go on your academy, it takes six months. Is it, so for people listening, where do they go to sign up for that?
Matthew: They send Chris an email, actually Chris, chris@breahead.com and they say, Hey, hey Chris, I'd love to be one of your new students.
Matthew: Right. The chances are we'll end up employing them. 'cause they, they sort of, so it's a great way to get a job as well. Yeah, yeah it is. Yeah. We give them real skills. [00:53:00] Six months. So got a really good teacher, Yella, who is a gifted baker, um, comes also from a sort of chef background. So a foodie.
James: So many of the people signing up school leavers, are they?
James: Or are they older people? Bit of a mix.
Matthew: I mean, we've got one, um, one girl at the moment who came actually over from California, um, yes. Came over, moved to London. Yeah. So real, real mixture. It's a very
James: famous chef school in Ireland, isn't it? Uh, B Maloo. Yeah. Yeah. That's attached to a hotel. Yeah. And, and so many people have been there.
James: Yeah. And trained there. Well else how these things are, you are creating that in the bakery world. Totally. I'm thinking, you know, and that's such a nice combination.
Matthew: And I suppose to, the, the thing I've learned really is, you know, it's time in the market is really what's needed. Because, you know, even if you go back to the early days of something like cordon blur, it would've been originally a couple of people in a room saying, Hey, let's do some teaching.
Matthew: Yes. And, and, and it grows. And you know, these, the really good businesses I always think grow organically. And they just, most [00:54:00] importantly is the, the substance is pure.
James: Yes. So, so the, the school and the bakery are sort of complimentary in that sense. Very much so. And will grow organically. Yeah. In a, in a way together, which is really powerful.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: And we, you know, the, the school side of it, it's, you know, it's quite informal. Um, quite relaxed. I mean, we, the, the norm, the day-to-day classes, we run a three hours Yeah. For just individuals who come along. You know, Mr. Mr and Mrs. Smith from Tumblr dwells will come up for, to make Italian Yeah. Baking lesson, you know.
Matthew: Um, we do a lot of school groups a lot. Almost every day we do a school group and they'll come in to make. You know, some bath bums or whatever. Yeah. We do corporate bookings, so that's a really big one for us. A lot of corporate like team, team building groups. That's fun. Yeah. It's something, it's really good.
Matthew: We spend the day doing, you know, so if you're listening Yeah. You ring your office on a team building course. So who do I email for that, Chris again? No, that'll be Molly. Molly know [00:55:00] Molly. 'cause Molly is put all
James: this
Matthew: in the show notes a demon, you know, she's, no, no. Well that
James: would be a really fun sort of team building day.
James: I can see that. Yeah. I think everyone would really enjoy that. Yeah.
Matthew: We had, we have loads of, I'm not if, I'm sure if I'm allowed to mention company names on here, but we have You can say what you like on here. Yeah. This is free speech. Sweet. We had um, we had ikea, we had Bentley Motors, we had Soho House recently.
Matthew: They were going into
James: team building. Yeah, they love it. That's brilliant.
Matthew: I didn't know you did that. So, yeah. Yeah. Huge. And they go away with big bags of product. It's really generous, you know, and just, we have this nice, it's a lovely spirit we've created
James: And is that in Wembley?
Matthew: Wembley and Borough. Yeah, and
James: borough as well.
James: So now I have to ask you this 'cause it's it's front page news on my city Am Oh yes. We're in London on the city AM today. And as well as all these, um, lovely donuts in front of me. The front, uh, story on city Am says slim pickings and it says Grocery sales fall as popularity of weight loss jab leads to fewer items in the bagging area.
James: I mean, are tastes gonna change as people take
Matthew: weight loss jabs [00:56:00] or other Whoa. I mean, it's, it's interesting for sure. I mean that, you know, the Ozempic thing is, you know, I, I know three people are taking Ozempic. It's everywhere. It's so big. Um, has it affected our sales? No, we are. So you're, you we're growing the bagging area hasn't been affected at Bacon.
Matthew: No,
James: it has not
Matthew: at all.
James: So, so this might happen, but it's not, you're not seeing it yet.
Matthew: No. Um, you
James: know, I think might
Matthew: people eat slightly different things, that's all. Yeah. I think we're still pretty much, we're quite a niche brand. I mean, we are typically the sort of, we're a treat day, you know, we're something that people have once a month.
Matthew: Yeah. You know, we're not, you know, we're not a, we're not on every corner. Right. You know, so, I mean, we're still relatively a small business. You know, it's a, yeah. We have five locations in London. We have about 200 staff. It's How many franchises are you at? Uh, we have so 11 locations open in the Middle East.
Matthew: They'll open another four or five this year, and we're opening Philippines. So we'll, by the end of this year, we'll [00:57:00] have probably 2020.
James: So that's, that's fast growing as well.
Matthew: Yeah. But it's, you know, once it gets a, once it gets a grip, it can really grow very fast.
James: Yeah. So that's, that's for the next year or two, that's a big focus for you.
James: That's a big thing. Yeah. Well, I wish you huge success with that. Thanks for coming and talking to me. Now I'm gonna ask you two questions, which I always ask at at the end. Yes. You kind of half answered one or well, more than half, answered one, which is what gets you up on a Monday morning. That's my first question.
Matthew: Gosh. Well, I'm an early riser, so, um, I'm just up, you know, it's, um, but what is an early
James: riser in your world?
Matthew: 5, 5, 4, 5. I get, I'm one of those people. I get up early on holiday, you know, I really,
James: so terrible. How well did you get up on holiday? Ah, four, five, go for a walk. Okay. Terrible.
Matthew: Yeah,
James: so you get up early because
Matthew: you, I don't like to go for a walk around, go and have a cup of coffee, just sort of go through my emails, see what's going on, make some notes, [00:58:00] sit down with my pen, you know?
Matthew: Yeah. I've just
James: So you've always been like that, like to connect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm
Matthew: not one for snoozing. Yeah, no. That give me that
James: impression. No. And then my last question is, um, question from my interview book. Why you 101 interview questions you'll Never Fear again? And it's very simple. It's where do you see yourself in five years time?
Matthew: Gosh, you five years time. Um. Pretty much the same. I, I would hope, really, um, at the moment I've got a really good sort of work life balance. Probably the best it's ever been. I would like to be. Playing the piano. Could you describe
James: that? 'cause you, you said earlier that you work seven days a week. Yeah. So what's your best work life balance look like for you?
James: I just wanna understand that. Yeah. So what, what looks like now
Matthew: I, I get up early, have cup of tea, do sort of potter about the house, take my son Magnus to school. Um, he's only four, so, um, oh, lovely. That's a nice thing. I've got my 4-year-old grandson staying at such fun.
James: Oh gosh, [00:59:00]
Matthew: I love it. Yeah. And then I go down to Pavilion Road, I see the guys there, we've got a great team.
Matthew: See Kelly and the team and hey guys, they make me a double espresso. Then I nip over to Borough, I'll see the team there, I see what's in season, see what's on the market, have a chat to some of the traders, and then sometimes go to up to Wembley. I go to the gym. I have a trainer. I train almost every day, um, doing various things on exercise stuff, you know?
Matthew: Right. That's good. Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm really into that and it's great. Um, and I like to sort of be back home by sort of mid-afternoon and do some cooking. Right. You know,
James: what'd
Matthew: you cook? Um, nice risotto, maybe some MoSo buco, maybe Simple steak, you know, just sim, simple food. Really. Bit of fish.
James: That's your evening meal.
James: Some
Matthew: soup. Yeah. And then go to bed at half eight, nine, and Right. Start over again.
James: So you are very visible in the business. Very, yeah. You're out there with everyone all the time.
Matthew: Yeah. I, I like that. So you know that, you know
James: everyone. I [01:00:00] imagine. Yeah, I know all the staff. Yeah. That's gonna change. It gets bigger and bigger, isn't it?
James: It will. How do you feel about that?
Matthew: Yeah, I'll, I'll adapt. You have to. I'll have, I mean, it's changed '
James: cause our companys sort of grown over time. I've gone from knowing pretty much everyone to not
Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, and I think it, it's, I'm in the best place. Funny. I mean, you know, I'm in the best place I've ever been in my life right now.
James: Fantastic.
Matthew: Which is an extraordinary thing. 'cause it's been a pretty, um, pretty turbulent ride at times. You know, it's really, and I really value. The consistency of how I live now, it's really, I really treasure that and I just don't wanna disrupt it too much. So yeah, in five years, if it's the same or something close to right now, that'd be great.
Matthew: So Matthew, under, under here, I've got a couple of your books.
James: Yeah. Your, your published author. Bread ahead, the expert Home Baker and Baking School. The Bread Ahead cookbook. Mm-hmm. Can I pass 'em through to you? Um, yeah. They're, tell us about [01:01:00] these quickly. So, um, lovely. Why did you do
Matthew: books and, um, why would we buy them?
Matthew: Right. Well, the first one, this was written in 2014, baking School, the Bread Ahead Cookbook, which was really a way to condense the bakery school, the lessons into a cookbook. So, because it, it became really clear that the, the audience we have in the bakery school, you know, they're home bakers and they, they loved, they were all asking for a book.
Matthew: So we, Julie did one. Um, it's a lot of work doing a cookbook. Wow. You know, it's one of those, the photography
James: has to be particularly good, isn't it? The whole
Matthew: thing, you know, it's really scientific, the approach. You need a certain, you know, a hundred recipes and this, and a hundred recipes. Yeah. Is it, um, to, yeah.
Matthew: For, there's, there's, so you
James: didn't do just one, you did two.
Matthew: Yeah. And then during lockdown. 'cause it wasn't busy enough. Right. Okay. Yeah. Let's do number one. Yeah. But I, I think the, you know, it was really So that second one's your lockdown one? Yeah. Again, hundred recipes. Yeah. Near about, I think it's 97 or something.
Matthew: [01:02:00] And yeah, just lots of nice recipes in there. And it's, you know, again, those really, it helps me to sort of reflect on my life because it, it required a lot of me to do this, you know, and this is the sort of stuff that needs a pretty stable mind. I mean, I wouldn't have done this if I'd been down the pub every five minutes, you know?
Matthew: No, it, it needed all of my brain to really focus on, to deliver.
James: Yeah.
Matthew: And it, it's such a satisfying thing when it's actually. There and done. You know, it's very nice. I, I, I
James: like writing books. I do books as well, and they like a better, better than a business card sort of thing. Here's some of our best ideas.
Matthew: Yeah.
James: Um, it's, it's really solid. It's sort of recorded somehow in a way that it's for posterity as well. People pick that up in years time and
Matthew: yeah.
James: We enjoy what you've suggested.
Matthew: Yeah. And there are a lot of people, you know, it's a very giftable thing and it's just Yeah. Lovely to do. And it, it does again, it's, you know, being an author, you know, I don't, I don't really consider myself an author, um, really, but, um, it's just nice to have that.
Matthew: You are, yes. I [01:03:00] suppose it is. I need to baker and an author. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the Expert Home Baker has been published in other languages, so in Spanish, Dutch and South Korean.
James: Brilliant.
Matthew: I, I
James: had a, my interview book was translated into South Korean or Korean. Yeah. And it was 101 interview questions, but they asked if they could take four out.
James: That weren't culturally appropriate. Really? Yeah. One of them was, have you ever stolen a pen from work? Oh, so that's not in there, so I don't, but baking obviously doesn't have this challenge, so you be able to keep all of that in.
Matthew: Great. Well, should we eat a donut? Yeah, I think. I think we should
James: conclude by eating a donut.
Matthew: Yeah. Enjoy. James. Bite deep. I'm gonna go for the lemon one here.
James: Hmm. This is fabulous.
Matthew: Yeah,
James: it's a lot more than just a donut. I don't know. I don't wanna make people too jealous. It might be [01:04:00] listening, but anywhere near Borough Market, get down there. Thank you very much. This is delicious. Thank you, Matthew, for joining me on all About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company.
James: If you'd like to find out more about Reed, Matthew, and Bread ahead, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.
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