Watch the episode
Listen to the episode
On this episode of all about business, James Reed is joined by Mark Dorey, Co-founder and CEO of Straightline Aviation. A pioneering company building hybrid airships designed to deliver cargo to the most remote corners of the world.
No roads, no airports - no problems. It’s a bold mission with the power to reshape global logistics and unlock new possibilities for connection, commerce, and care.
Mark shares how he turned an ambitious idea into a real business, what to look for in the right business partner, and some of the great lessons he learned when working alongside Richard Branson.
01:42 introduction
04:04 how does an airship work?
06:55 why the early popularity of airships?
12:04 the customer benefits of airships
19:06 Mark's early career
24:15 changing business models
29:51 future scale
32:07 learning from Richard Branson
34:35 delegation and accountability
44:49 pros and cons of business partners
47:17 negotiating and establishing business relationships
51:10 business opportunity checklist
52:43 establishing shared vision and trust
Check out Straightline Aviation’s website:https://www.straightlineaviation.com/
Follow Straightline Aviation on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/company/straightline-aviation-limited/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
V5 PC Mark Dorey
James: [00:00:00] Welcome to All About business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers [00:00:05] everything about business management and leadership.[00:00:10]
50% of the world is not [00:00:15] connected. Transporting medicine, food, and many products. Can come at high cost, [00:00:20] but what if we were on the brink of a revolutionary solution? Joining me today on All [00:00:25] About business is Mark Dory, the co-founder and CEO of Straight [00:00:30] Line Aviation, a new hybrid airship company that will transport [00:00:35] cargo to every part of the planet.
In this episode, we discuss how to turn your [00:00:40] ambitious idea into a new business, tips for choosing the right business partner [00:00:45] and the lessons mark learned from Richard Branson. Well today [00:00:50] on all About business, I'm really delighted to welcome Mark Dory, who's traveled all the way [00:00:55] from Bridge North in Schroer, and he's the CEO and co-founder of a [00:01:00] company called Straight Line Aviation as the crow flies.
I always absolutely, [00:01:05] and it's a, uh, hybrid, uh. Well, it's a totally new way of delivering, [00:01:10] um, people and goods and services to remote parts of the world. So I'm gonna ask you, mark, [00:01:15] just explain a little bit about what Straight Line Aviation is and will be, [00:01:20] and. Why you are doing this? 'cause you, you are a serial entrepreneur and you've got a great [00:01:25] new venture here and I want to hear all about it.
Mark: Fantastic. No, thank, thank you very much. And, and thank you for [00:01:30] inviting me down today, James. It's a pleasure being here. Straight line aviation has been [00:01:35] established as a, an operator of a new generation of, of airships. And I dunno if you can catch [00:01:40] that. Well, those on video Mark is holding a small airship.
Yeah. Small, small airship model. [00:01:45] Um, so this is the new generation of airship designed to move, uh, heavy lift, [00:01:50] cargo, freight, uh, and, and a number of other applications. And we are, if you like, the airline in [00:01:55] the piece. So the airship itself in this regard has been developed by Lockheed Martin over in the States and is [00:02:00] now being commercialized by spin out of the, uh, of, of Lockheed.
And we were invited to [00:02:05] get involved really because of our airship operations experience and. We have a team of people with a [00:02:10] great deal of heritage in, in the airship industry and, uh, many, many decades of [00:02:15] experience of operating airships all over the world. So, mark, I'm gonna interrupt you 'cause
James: I'm not sure [00:02:20] really what an air ship is.
Okay. So, so, I mean, there's an airplane. Yes, I know what that is. And there's a ship. [00:02:25] Yes, I know what that is. Yes. Just tell us people like me who maybe don't know what, what is an airship? How's [00:02:30] it dis. Different from a ship or a, okay. What is it? How does it work? A
Mark: fair, fair question. So, an air [00:02:35] ship is a, is an aircraft first and foremost.
It flies, it flies, it's [00:02:40] powered, but it gets most of its lift from gas contained in a large [00:02:45] envelope, a large bag, really. And typically these days that lifting gas is, is [00:02:50] helium, which is lighter than air. So you get free lift. It's different from a, from an aircraft that you [00:02:55] have a buoyant flight. Um, as opposed to a flight where the [00:03:00] entirety of the lift is generated by the wings, by the aerodynamics of the, of the shape of the air.
[00:03:05] So like those
James: helium balloons we get for our kids' parties, you know, they go up and they get stuck in the corner on the ceiling. Yeah. So we [00:03:10] know they're gonna go up. Yeah. And you attach an engine of some sort to that, I mean, obviously in a different [00:03:15] manner. Yeah. But how,
Mark: how does that then travel and how does it land?
Yeah. So [00:03:20] traditionally airships have, have operated around neutral buoyancy. So, so that means [00:03:25] that they're neither heavier than air nor lighter than air, and they have 2, 4, 6, 8 engines on [00:03:30] them, and that powers the takeoff and they get up into the, into the sky. And you've gotta manage that [00:03:35] buoyancy. You've gotta manage the, the buoyancy created by the by, by the gas.
This is like my [00:03:40] scuba diving endeavor. This is, you know, under
James: the water you're trying to manage your eBuy be this thing exactly
Mark: that. And what you don't want to [00:03:45] do is, in your example, is end up bob up to the top, Bob up to top. Dangerous. Yeah. 'cause you start going [00:03:50] up and you carry on going up. Exactly. So you've gotta manage that, that, that weight and [00:03:55] buoyancy.
Um, because if you go too far, the gas expands the envelope, you're in trouble [00:04:00] and you're in real trouble. 'cause then you're coming back down again. So for a long time, I. People at, [00:04:05] at the, well, if you've got this free lift from the, from the helium gas in the envelope, if you, [00:04:10] you should be able to build a big envelope and attach a large weight to it, and you should be able to move [00:04:15] that around using a lot less energy than it would take to power a, a regular jet or a, or [00:04:20] a helicopter.
And, but is this
James: quite old technology? Because, I mean, I'm just imagining those, I've, those, we've all seen [00:04:25] those pictures of the sort of zeppelins of World War I and Yeah. Yeah. These were. Similar things, weren't
Mark: they? Again, [00:04:30] you know, those are traditional airships and I'll come onto the, the, the difference between Yeah.
That kind of [00:04:35] airship and, and what we are looking at today. So you are in new version, um, yeah, a new version. But yes, I mean, the [00:04:40] history goes back. The technology is, is, is old. But you'll also perhaps have seen [00:04:45] back in those days that in order to land that airship, you had hun literally [00:04:50] hundreds of people grabbing hold of.
Lines that came down from the nose and the tail of [00:04:55] the airship, and they would walk it in and they'd more it to a, to a, to a mast. [00:05:00] Um, the most famous mast in the world is the empire top of the Empire State Building. And that was designed Oh, so that was [00:05:05] that as an airship. I didn't know that. So that was for Airship Dock on, was it?
And did people [00:05:10] dock on it? I I don't believe they ever did. No, I don't. But that's why it was billed like that. That's so interesting. I did not know that. [00:05:15] So, you know, so that's the problem that with a big. Envelope full of [00:05:20] helium. You've got to physically hold it down to the ground and then you've gotta mor it to a mast, which [00:05:25] also physically holds it to the ground.
Um, and that gives you a problem that if you are. O [00:05:30] offloading or unloading that heavy weight, you take a 20 ton weight off that [00:05:35] it wants to disappear rapidly up into the air, so you've got to put an equal [00:05:40] amount of ball on and with an airship on a mast, it will pivot around the mast. It'll kite up and [00:05:45] down.
So it's a very, very difficult, um, aircraft to. Ground [00:05:50] handle.
James: So that's so interesting what you were saying about the Empire State. I had no idea that that top of it was built for that [00:05:55] purpose. I mean, I was just visualized King Kong being attached to it. Ab absolutely. But you, I mean, you've [00:06:00] mentioned that these airships were used for travel quite widely.
Can you tell us a little bit about Yeah. [00:06:05] Very. What was happening when very,
Mark: very successfully in the 1920s, thirties, [00:06:10] airships were the first and the fastest way to move across the Atlantic [00:06:15] by, by air. And then they went on down to Brazil. Um, and there was a, there was a huge amount of [00:06:20] activity, um, luxury, you know, effectively they were luxury liners of the, of the sky.
And then [00:06:25] originally in World War I, airships were used for defense and also for, [00:06:30] for, for bombing raid. Um, airship raid over over London. Airships in their heyday [00:06:35] were widespread and, and common and fulfilled a number of different, um, uh, so
James: were the Germans, the [00:06:40] pioneers of airships.
Mark: Uh, to, to a large extent, yes, but there were, um, other countries, I mean, we, [00:06:45] we were pioneering in the airship industry as well.
Um, the hangar still exists in Cardington [00:06:50] where many of the British airships were built. Uh, Germany, the Zeppelin company still produces [00:06:55] airships, um, out of f Friedrich's Halfen in southern Germany. So yeah, there are many people still involved. [00:07:00] So why
James: did they fall
Mark: out of use, you know, as a travel, the part, well, other things overtook them.
[00:07:05] So, so, oh, literally, you know, literally aircraft became more common, uh, widespread, [00:07:10] um, and could move people faster. And from the technology point of view, traditional airships are [00:07:15] more susceptible to, to weather. And there was a move. To use [00:07:20] hydrogen as a lifting gas, um, partly because of the lack of avail [00:07:25] availability of, um, of, of helium and, and the freedom which with which that was, [00:07:30] um, shared in the run up to the second World War.
So, uh, particularly the Germans started using. [00:07:35] Hydrogen, which is flammable, um, rather than helium, which is, which is not.
And [00:07:50] it was seen as a, of strategic military importance. So, uh, there, there was a [00:07:55] reluctance to supply helium to, uh, to Germany. At the time. Oh, very interesting. [00:08:00] And that was the sort of end of it for Yeah, for a while. Yeah. And you then ran into the second World War. So [00:08:05] yeah, times moved on, the jet engine was, was invented and, and things have [00:08:10] moved on and I think we are now looking at a very different type of air ship with applications in very different [00:08:15] markets.
And there's a clear purpose. Well, clearly. And it's
James: very interesting how it also combines with hollow. [00:08:20] Technology from aircraft. Yes. Yeah. So recycling technology in new ways. Yeah. I mean, interesting. There's
Mark: [00:08:25] really very little in the way of new technology. It's just the way it's being put together that that interesting novel interest.[00:08:30]
James: So no, a lot of people have seen the film. Of the hindenberg airship [00:08:35] disaster. So, so having seen that and wondered about it, w why would anyone [00:08:40] now get back on an air ship?
Mark: Yeah, I was, it's a, it's a fair question and one that we're often asked [00:08:45] less and less so as people understand the new technology, but, um, first and foremost, um, [00:08:50] that was filled with hydrogen and they were.
A variety of historic reasons for that. And hydrogen is [00:08:55] flammable, whereas modern day airships are filled with, with helium, which actually puts fires out. [00:09:00] So that's the fundamental difference to start with. But airships in general are probably the safest form [00:09:05] of, of flight. It because of the natural buoyancy from the helium.
Uh, even if you had all four [00:09:10] engines fail in an airship, you wouldn't just plummet out of the, the sky come down at similar speed [00:09:15] to, to a parachute. You don't have. To react like you do with an issue with a [00:09:20] fixed wing aircraft, which relies on forward momentum and some very clever electronics to keep it in the, [00:09:25] in the air.
The adage for a an airship pilot is if you have a problem, um, do nothing [00:09:30] because you've got time to react and you've got time to work out. How to solve the problem. There's a film [00:09:35] that you may still be able to find on, on YouTube, not of an airship, but of a tethered healing balloon [00:09:40] that broke loose from its moorings.
And it was a US military balloon. Big, big thing with some very [00:09:45] clever, clever wizzy surveillance equipment on it. It's been embarrassing and it, yeah, well it, it [00:09:50] started floating towards Iran. From, from mo B more. And so they were very anxious to, to [00:09:55] bring it down. And the, and the film shows a helicopter gunship taking off and firing multiple [00:10:00] rounds, big rounds into this, um, tethered balloon to try and bring it down as it's floating.[00:10:05]
And it takes a lot of ammunition to, to bring it to ground, a huge [00:10:10] amount. And that's, you know, really more than anything else illustrates why airships [00:10:15] are particularly, particularly safe. So an
James: unexpected ad supplied by the Americans for the safety of [00:10:20] airships. Yes. Which we'll take. But yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
That's very interesting. I'll have a look for
Mark: [00:10:25] that. The new airship design is, is what's called what we call a hybrid airship. That's what you are [00:10:30] doing now, and that's what we are doing now. That's the Lockheed design, and there is a company in the UK that's also working [00:10:35] on a similar design. The big difference between a traditional cigar shaped.
[00:10:40] Airship and the new wider bodied airship is that the wider body is there to deliver [00:10:45] that aerodynamic lift. So it's shaped like a wing, right? So it gets about about 80, 60 [00:10:50] to 80% of its lift from the helium. But the balance of it comes from the [00:10:55] aerodynamic effect as you drive that airship through the air and also with vector thrust from [00:11:00] from the engines.
And that means it can operate. Significantly heavy than air. So when it comes [00:11:05] into land, it sits naturally on the ground. You don't need a large crew. You don't need a, [00:11:10] a, a mast. And that frees you up to do what people have wanted to do [00:11:15] for decades, which is move large objects around or heavy objects around, [00:11:20] um, to places where there isn't any infrastructure.
James: So Mark, so so what sort of benefits will. [00:11:25] Businesses see as this becomes more mainstream.
Mark: I, I think there's a, there's a range of, of, of, of [00:11:30] things that the airship delivers on. First and foremost, connecting parts of the world that are not connected. [00:11:35] Um, currently, if you're a business looking to expand your, your market, your reach, but [00:11:40] also I.
Doing that in a, in a green and more sustainable manner, lower [00:11:45] fuel emissions, lower infrastructure costs and damage. Um, there's a, an example [00:11:50] where a, an oil and gas company spent $927 [00:11:55] million building a, a runway in Papua New Guinea to fly Antonoff aircraft in and out. [00:12:00] And they calculated that they would've saved.
900 of that [00:12:05] $927 million if they, if they'd had a fleet of air ships available. And, and that's a [00:12:10] combination of the, the, the actual cost of movement, but largely in the, in the, in the lower infrastructure [00:12:15] requirements in building that runway and knocking down two mountains. So on top of that. You know, [00:12:20] less, less environmental damage.
And, and in general, we are cheaper than helicopters. We're cheaper than [00:12:25] aircraft in a, in a cost per ton mile. We do everything that, that a helicopter can do, but we do it over a greater [00:12:30] range with a greater payload. So linking those places that are otherwise [00:12:35] impossible to reach or difficult to reach, uh, if you're looking in the arc.
Tick. Ice road seasons are [00:12:40] getting less reliable, so providing a reliable year round service. So with an ice road, you may [00:12:45] be able to reach those places for a month, a year. We can operate in the same area for 11 months a year. [00:12:50] So there are lots and lots of things that. Where we have a significant advantage over [00:12:55] existing transport technologies.
We're doing that.
James: So that's the, that's the problem that your business is seeking to [00:13:00] solve. Exactly. Moving stuff around where there's no infrastructure, no railways. No ports. Exactly. No roads. Exactly. [00:13:05] Yeah. So must've
Mark: almost got our tagline there. No roads, no no railways, no. No [00:13:10] airports, no problems. Is that what you say?
No problem. No problem. Problem.
James: Okay, so, so I like the sound of [00:13:15] this. So, so what sort of. Tasks, you know, who, who wants to do that sort of stuff? Who, [00:13:20] who are your potential customers? Uh,
Mark: I mean, people are surprised always when I say that around 50% of the world is [00:13:25] not connected by traditional 55 0, 55 0. So 50% of the world is not [00:13:30] connected by traditional forms of transport.
Um, whether that be, um, [00:13:35] airports, aircraft, trains, roads, um, et cetera. And that's 50% of the [00:13:40] world, uh, both in terms of geographic area and also in terms of population. [00:13:45]
James: The Sahara Desert must be a large
Mark: part. Yeah, I mean, no Sahara Desert, but you know, if you think about it, large parts [00:13:50] of, huge parts of Africa, large parts of, of, of Asia, Australia, a lot of the [00:13:55] islands, so places like Indonesia, Singapore, but then there's large [00:14:00] amounts closer to home or, or closer to what we would call, you know, the Western world, [00:14:05] Northern Canada.
Ma, massive amount. I mean, I flew two hours north of [00:14:10] Montreal and in a 7, 3 7, and you're only halfway up Canada. And by that stage you've run [00:14:15] out of traditional road and rail transport. You've left it way, way behind Alaska. [00:14:20] Um, south America, the Amazon Basin, um, but also large areas of the Amazon. [00:14:25] And those people in those communities don't have access to what we would consider everyday [00:14:30] things, whether it's, whether it's hospitals.
A medical provision, whether it's it's food, [00:14:35] fruit, vegetables. I mean, if you go to, I went to a place called ak. Got you. Took a picture. Was that in Canada? That's in [00:14:40] Canada, yeah. Yeah. Um, and I took a picture of the supermarket. Mm. And, and this was [00:14:45] 10 years ago. And I'm gonna ask you a question. How much do you think a lettuce [00:14:50] cost in the supermarket?
In Wow. It's gonna be more than I would [00:14:55] imagine. Five Canadian dollars, 32 Canadian dollars, and [00:15:00] that is all in the transport because it is so difficult to get that kind of thing. And you've got a, so there aren't
James: [00:15:05] many lettuce eaters? There are not many letters. Oh, and that's a
Mark: very good point. You know, I mean, people out there, how do they [00:15:10] get a hold of things that would, would constitute a a, a good and mixed diet for that read.[00:15:15]
Multiple other issues. Moving waste. Mm-hmm. Getting building materials in, [00:15:20] they're restricted to, um, the ice road season, which with climate change is [00:15:25] getting, um, less and less reliable. I mean, even in a, in a good year, it's six to eight weeks. So the [00:15:30] ice road seasons, when it's frozen. When it's frozen, you drive across things.
Build that, yeah. Where you can drive across
James: [00:15:35] as house,
Mark: road
James: truckers, but that's a huge area of the planet, isn't it? Northern Canada. Parts of [00:15:40] Russia sort of frozen or semi frozen for absolutely
Mark: massive. You know, now I, we've talked. [00:15:45] People and you ask, you know, it, it could be people with existing facilities up there, you know, [00:15:50] mines and, and that kind of thing.
It could be, um, cleanup operations. It could be all [00:15:55] sorts of people. It could be medical treatment. Well, I was
James: thinking you could almost take a sort of ready-made [00:16:00] medical center on the airship and put it down somewhere, and it had its [00:16:05] own power source. You could plug it in and go, and you'd have. Be able to provide quite a good is.
Is that something [00:16:10] you are nodding? Absolutely. A hundred percent. I thought that would be a very useful application for [00:16:15] people in all sorts of remote parts of the world.
Mark: Absolutely. A hundred, a hundred percent. We've got a partner called, um, rad Aid. [00:16:20] Rad Aid, or a UN backed NGO. With over 10,000 volunteers in the [00:16:25] radiology, um, sphere.
And again, radiology equipment is heavy. It's [00:16:30] bulky, it's sensitive. So the airship provides an ideal way of moving that around. So we've been [00:16:35] working with them and their partners looking at how we. Can transport [00:16:40] containerized units and drop 'em off in villages, um, and, and provide those services. So [00:16:45] that's one of the many, many things, moving vaccines, you know, a topical COVID.[00:16:50]
Um, how do you move, how do you move vaccines? How do you provide people with basic medical cover [00:16:55] that can't, don't have access to hospitals, cancer treatment? You know? So we, yeah, we [00:17:00] all of these, what
James: I'm thinking though is these are distances that are too far for helicopters. Yeah. Or places [00:17:05] that are too difficult to access.
Yeah, yeah. In that way. So, and you can carry a lot more than that. Absolutely. [00:17:10] And you don't need a runway to land. You don't need a run runway to land. What do you need to land a field run? Just piece of flat [00:17:15] ground.
Mark: I mean, we can do vertical takeoff and landing with a slightly reduced payload, an unprepared [00:17:20] piece of ground.
We can land on water, snow, ice. Right. Um, uh, anything with an obstacle up to [00:17:25] about a, about a meter in height, because underneath, and this is the key part of the Locke design, which makes [00:17:30] it different. You've got three hovercraft. Landing pads. So [00:17:35] literally hovercraft design built in. So, so it is, course we're
James: doing a, an aircraft aircraft ship, [00:17:40] a ship a
Mark: or a seafaring.
So, so these, these, these air cushion landing systems are now the [00:17:45] aircraft to maneuver on the ground. It can pivot on its own axis. No, it's [00:17:50] hugely powerful. But on top of that, but these aren't ready yet. We can't go on. Not quite ready yet. Quite, no, we excited, [00:17:55] there's a certification program with the FAA in the states.
So that's underway. So in the states [00:18:00] they're doing that. Yeah. But the key is that you put the, um, what we call a CLS air cushion landing [00:18:05] system into reverse thrust, and that sucks the airship down to the ground and provides further [00:18:10] stability, right? So you've got a really stable aircraft. And so all of the problems [00:18:15] typically associated with the traditional airship that I've mentioned earlier have now been removed [00:18:20] by a clever piece of engineering designed by the team at, uh, at
James: Lockheed.
That's so interesting. I'd [00:18:25] like to go back Mark A. Little bit. I mean, 'cause you've been involved in aviation a long time. I mean, [00:18:30] tell us a bit about your early career and how you got into this in the first place. 'cause that's interesting.
Mark: Yeah. No, well, [00:18:35] it, it depends a little bit how far you want to go back, but I go back to
James: the beginning of your aviation sort of [00:18:40] experiences.
So,
Mark: um, I graduated just down the road at the at, at the LSC, um, and [00:18:45] trained at, at Coopers and I brand. Uh, just down the road in that direction. Uh, and [00:18:50] really I saw accountancy as a means to an end on it. It's a great, uh, business qualification. It [00:18:55] gives you a great foundation and understanding, um, some technical tools and knowledge.
James: Yeah. Young people listening, I [00:19:00] would endorse that. Yeah. Accountancy is a good way of learning about business. One of my sons has just done well.
Mark: [00:19:05] Brilliant. Uh, fantastic. No, so, but I never saw myself staying in, in the [00:19:10] accountancy. Field it, it was, it was a springboard to get into, into business and, and [00:19:15] accelerate progression in, in that regard.
So I left pretty much as soon as I qualified, I [00:19:20] went to work in sales motion advertising as a financial controller. So still retaining the, [00:19:25] the, the financial aspect. But it, that was a, was a, in some ways a baptism and [00:19:30] fire. I actually, you working in that agency, working in a sales promotion agency, sales promotion called [00:19:35] KLP.
You may have come across some, a long time ago. And it was, it was brilliant. I mean, for a [00:19:40] young, slightly green, wet behind the ears accountant to go out into that kind of world. [00:19:45] Um, and I really enjoyed it. I looked after a division of about 12 companies, small subsidiaries, and that propelled me [00:19:50] into the, into the commercial world.
Propelled you. No. So
James: come on, let's. Let's take that word [00:19:55] that propelled you. So sales promotion, then what? You started sticking things on balloons. Well, what happened? [00:20:00] How did you end up doing sales? That I got
Mark: a stint at that Pepsi, um, which gave me some international [00:20:05] experience. And then I joined Virgin and, and obviously Virgin, I was famous for ballooning, so he
James: ballooned
Mark: [00:20:10] across the Atlantic, didn't he?
Ballooned across the Atlantic and, and the Pacific as well. And, and that was, uh, [00:20:15] project managed by my. Partner, business partner, Mike Kendrick. Um, and then he was [00:20:20] attempting to fly around the world, um, right in a, in a balloon. I don't you remember what happened on that one then? Didn't quite make him, [00:20:25] was being to the punch, um, in the, in the end by someone, somebody here, somebody else.
Oh, someone else went around. [00:20:30] Somebody else, yeah. So. Joined Virgin Airship and Balloon Company. So that must have been really exciting.
James: You know, you had these [00:20:35] great sort of, um, missions to sort of deliver.
Mark: It was fantastic, but also just growing the commercial [00:20:40] business. So it, it, it, so what was the commercial, what was the commercial model?
PR principally advertising. [00:20:45] So not sticking things on, balloon sticking exactly that. So, so. We had, uh, a fleet of hot [00:20:50] air balloons, many of which were special shapes, so they could be designed to, we had Sonic the Hedgehog, if [00:20:55] you remember the old computer game. Yeah, I just thinking the ones like Goodyear was always up there.
Goodyear was an airship. [00:21:00] They did have some, some hot air balloons, virgin, a lot of virgin balloons on the M 40. A lot of, a lot of virgin balloons. [00:21:05] Those are passenger carrying balloons rather than, but
James: you see them
Mark: in
James: the. Summer, a nice evening, you're up there. Absolutely. And I, [00:21:10] and I set
Mark: up that franchise network back in the, back in the day.
But, um, and then the [00:21:15] airships. Yeah. Um, so traditional cigar shaped en uh, airships flying for people like [00:21:20] Goodyear. Um, we flew in 35 countries. What
James: else did you have Bud Brand around the world. So
Mark: Sanyo, [00:21:25] um, Budweiser, um, and many of the, the, we, we launched Orange in this country. So what
James: [00:21:30] was the appeal to the brand?
I mean, how did you sell it, you know. Why don't you state your name on an airship? I mean, how do you [00:21:35] make that work? For the, the advertising,
Mark: the, the key was delivering more bang for your [00:21:40] buck than somebody would get buying, buying newspaper advertising or poster site [00:21:45] sort of thing. And, and we did that by.
Um, putting, uh, cameras on [00:21:50] the airship. Oh, so the airships were used to cover, um, major sporting [00:21:55] events, um, and other, and other events. And we, we, we take them on a tour, so park and above [00:22:00] stadium, and then we'd, we'd sit at, so we'd sit above. So we, we pioneered the use of aerial cameras for things [00:22:05] like the Premier League for horse racing, channel four horse racing in this country.
We used to do Monday night [00:22:10] football, as it's called in the, in the, in the states. And then many of the, many of the NFL [00:22:15] games and so on. And. In return for providing the camera platform free of charge, the [00:22:20] broadcaster would agree to give us a certain number of ground to air shots, um, [00:22:25] during the course of the program.
I understand.
James: So, yeah.
Mark: And there's a lot of debate about the [00:22:30] relative value, but those, those, that exposure was during the program. So your brand was seen as being [00:22:35] associated and. Contributing to the sporting event rather than, okay, the [00:22:40] adverts have come on now I'm gonna go into the kitchen and switch. So it was more integrated into the program, so it was much more [00:22:45] integrated and we would encourage our clients to do a, a survey and [00:22:50] value the media that they got.
We didn't even count on the ground. You know, people seeing it from the ground. [00:22:55] But we would come back at the end of the year and demonstrate to them that they'd got five, [00:23:00] 10 times more media exposure than they would've done spending the equivalent amount on, on [00:23:05] traditional, um, uh, advertising. Oh, I add to that.
Customer [00:23:10] entertainment, um, you know, supplier entertainment. People want to fly in airships, people [00:23:15] want to fly in hot air balloons. Um, and, and it engages with people and creates a [00:23:20] real, real buzz. So, um, the brands used to come back year after year. I mean, most of our airships were [00:23:25] on long term contract of more, you know, multiple year contracts and very [00:23:30] successful for those companies.
So
James: that was, that was the business model then. So you, you moved from that to sort of [00:23:35] more. Deliveries. Yes. Yeah. So, and that was with your new venture? [00:23:40] With the new venture Met Virgin.
Mark: So,
James: so who's your business
Mark: partner? Mike Kendrick. Um, [00:23:45] founded the Virgin Airship Milling company with, uh, Richard Branson. And I've known Mike [00:23:50] since I joined him in 1993, and we've worked together for the last 32 [00:23:55] years.
Um, more on than off. We have had a few. Few breaks in the, in the middle, but more on [00:24:00] the more on than off. And he's now what chairman he is EO and he's now chairman and I'm CEO. So, uh, so we've kind [00:24:05] of evolved. So you've worked together a long time? We've worked, yeah. We often joke, uh, we've been together longer than most married couples [00:24:10] so far.
Well, how's that, that
James: still, still get on?
Mark: Uh, absolutely no Good. I mean, uh, you know, [00:24:15] um, I think that's, we, we've got very different skills. Um, we come from different backgrounds, um, [00:24:20] and we compliment each other and, and have, well, that's
James: important in a business point, in any partnership, I suppose. Yeah, that's.[00:24:25]
Important in the business ion.
Mark: Um, um, yeah, a lot of our success that you combine the, the [00:24:30] vision and that entrepreneurial flair, um, with a, a more, perhaps a more formal business [00:24:35] background. And, uh, yeah, we, we've been very successful. When did you start Straight line? So we [00:24:40] started about 10 years ago. Right now, um, we were invited by a number of the manufacturers and [00:24:45] developers of the, this new heavy lift technology, if I can call it that in the, in the broadest [00:24:50] sense, but airship based heavy lift technology who recognized two things.
One is [00:24:55] most importantly that, um, the end use customers didn't want to buy and own and operate their own [00:25:00] aircraft. I mean, they don't wanna buy an owner operator, a helicopter let less of all a, an [00:25:05] airship, which they don't understand. So the companies sort of develop. Developing them said, okay, well how do [00:25:10] we plug that gap?
Well, let's go and talk to Mike and Mark and see if they're interested in [00:25:15] coming back into the industry. And, and so that's what we did, and we did a lot of due diligence and we looked at [00:25:20] all the, um, different designs that are out there in the market. And for the time being, we've honed in on the [00:25:25] Lockheed designers being most fit for purpose because of the, um, the things I [00:25:30] mentioned, the air cushion landing system, the design of the, the, the, the wing, et
James: cetera, et cetera.
Yeah. This is a slow burn. [00:25:35] I mean, it is a long time. Big investment, I imagine it is. I mean, time coming, you
Mark: know, a lot [00:25:40] people across, um, the industry have spent a lot of money, um, developing these aircraft. [00:25:45] But things in aviation do take a long time. You know, it takes a long time to certify [00:25:50] aircraft, to design, to develop, particularly when you're looking at something which is, which is [00:25:55] relatively new, albeit that it combines known and existing technologies, it still takes time [00:26:00] to, to get that done.
Do you need patient capital? Do you, you need patient capital? People who are [00:26:05] passionate, um, about. The, the project, most of the people that we have in involved from [00:26:10] an investment standpoint, um, have an interest. Many of them are our, um, partners, [00:26:15] strategic partners in different parts of the world. So, um, Ron Hyde, um, in Alaska [00:26:20] with his company, PRL, um, would be a, would be a good example of that.
So people [00:26:25] who see and understand the markets and understand the use cases, um, and people that have [00:26:30] really want to see us succeed and want to see the technology succeed. Um, in the Middle East, [00:26:35] we've got a, an investor based in KU eight, Abdu Arm, and Elisa, he has a vision of [00:26:40] moving freight in and outta the region, um, from Africa and in and out of Europe.
You know, it's [00:26:45] about finding good people and people that, uh, that are, that are there for the long haul.
James: So these are [00:26:50] people who, as well as investors, are potential customers, potential potential partners
Mark: and or [00:26:55] coal customers More, more partners because they have, you know, so, so Ron in Alaska [00:27:00] has a logistics business, so he would handle the oil and gas company or the government [00:27:05] contract.
Um, but we would provide the airship technology to, to deliver.
James: How long did [00:27:10] it take you to sort of get this idea up and running? You know, when you obviously left Virgin and. [00:27:15] He wanted to do this? Was that a difficult process or, um, did you have people saying, we want this, [00:27:20] or how did it come about from, from,
Mark: from our point of view, I suppose we were more reactive having been, [00:27:25] we, we'd seen the original hybrid design launched in the UK up at [00:27:30] Cardington Hangers near Bedford Chip back in the, uh, the early two thousands designed [00:27:35] by a guy called Roger Monk.
And we could see the potential, but it, as I say, it takes a long time for [00:27:40] those ideas to come through and, and get. To point where they're close enough to [00:27:45] delivery, they're close enough to, to reality to, for us as an operator, to, [00:27:50] to come in and start talking. But since then, we've talked with a lot of customers.
You know, [00:27:55] we've, we've, we've had conversations with significantly over a hundred end use [00:28:00] customers, um, in all parts of the world. Uh, and so we've qualified the demand for the airship [00:28:05] in many, many different, different areas, both geographically and in, in, in the sense of different [00:28:10] markets. So all that work has been going on during the last, you know, 8, 9, [00:28:15] 10 years.
As we've, as we've moved forward and we are now ready to launch, we put an order in [00:28:20] for the first airship, and our next phase is to build out the operations team. We've got key people [00:28:25] already, um, in place and, and lined up and to move forward with the, the business development.
James: If there are [00:28:30] people who are listening who are interested, who, who want to be part of this, you know, where, where do they find you, [00:28:35] mark?
What's the, what's your email or, or not your
Mark: email, your web address. The, the easiest one. Yeah. [00:28:40] You can find us all on our website, which is straightline aviation.com. That will give you the [00:28:45] details about the airship and the technology and who we are and our, our background. So whether, you know, whether you [00:28:50] are a potential customer or, or business partner, or whether you are somebody who, who likes, um, the [00:28:55] sound of what we're doing and potential investor, then yeah, please.
By all means, get in, get in touch, [00:29:00] and love to have a chat.
James: No, that, that's great. So how many airships do you imagine you might be running in the [00:29:05] future? What's your sort of vision for that? Is there a great fleet or,
Mark: yeah. Great. I mean, it's a great question. I [00:29:10] mean, the, the, there have been a number of independent market surveys done by [00:29:15] renowned and esteemed management consultants, and in interestingly, they.
They've all come [00:29:20] up with a number around 500 aircraft using completely different assumptions. There's partial [00:29:25] overlap, but there's not a complete overlap in in how they see the market. If you look at the customer inquiries that [00:29:30] we've had, as I say, we've spoken to well over a hundred serious people. Um, and many of those [00:29:35] have use for multiple airships, um, acting often as a road [00:29:40] bridge or an air bridge, I should say Connecting.
You know, point A with point [00:29:45] B directly. So we think that that, that, that's wildly un underestimated. I mean, [00:29:50] we could probably tot up over 500 right? Already potential orders already. And bearing in [00:29:55] mind that when, when it goes into production, you are looking at a, a production numbers of, of about a [00:30:00] dozen a year in the first instance.
Um, you can see that. Um, demand [00:30:05] wildly exceeds the, the supply, um, side of things. It certainly does. So, yeah. [00:30:10] So you'll have the first one, eh, we have the, the ordering for the first one. We've got some ideas about [00:30:15] where that's gonna go. And before we get to the, the commercial deployment, you won't be surprised to hear this.
[00:30:20] We're planning on flying nonstop around the world. Ah, um, which will be the, the launch and the [00:30:25] marketing platform. Um, and also raise a lot of awareness and, and support, uh, [00:30:30] charities in doing that. So, uh. We are excited about that. It's gonna be easier than flying around in a, [00:30:35] in a hot ling. 'cause you've got a couple of engines to take you where you want to go.
Um, but it, nevertheless, it's [00:30:40] quite a challenge. Why is it a challenge technically? What's the, uh, because you still, you still [00:30:45] need to have the assistance and work with the, the, the weather systems around the [00:30:50] world. Um, so you've got pick a good time. And so if you were flying into a headwind all around the world, [00:30:55] you, you wouldn't make it.
You just can't carry enough fuel Right. To do it. So you, you've still got an [00:31:00] element. Which means that you've got to plan and manage that, that process, it's a balance [00:31:05] between the, the, the payload and the, and the, and the, and the distance you're flying. Um, [00:31:10] temperature, altitude. There's a lot of things that, that, uh, that come into the picture.
That's fantastic. I
James: look [00:31:15] forward to hearing all about that, that that'd be a fantastic thing to do. So headwinds, they're apply in all [00:31:20] sorts of ways in business. Yes, indeed. We don't want egg. Wind.
Mark: Yeah. [00:31:25]
James: So you once worked for Richard Branson, obviously for some time. Yes. Yeah. Um, what do [00:31:30] you learn from him in terms of what you've carried on into your entrepreneurial endeavors, um, as an [00:31:35] entrepreneur?
I think, you
Mark: know, fi first and foremost, I think when you, when you meet Richard for the, for the first time, [00:31:40] the thing that hits you is his, his energy and enthusiasm. And I, and I think that's [00:31:45] something that. Is entirely relevant to whatever business you're running. You [00:31:50] know, if you, if you've got that passion, you've got that drive, then you are [00:31:55] gonna succeed.
You know, it can be as blunt as, as that. I'm not saying if you don't have it, you won't succeed. But [00:32:00] certainly if you've got that, you've got a much bigger. And better chance of succeeding. Clearly, [00:32:05] he's known for injecting a lot of fun into the places that he, that he works. And I think that's, you know, [00:32:10] important.
It's gotta be tempered, particularly when you're in aviation, you know, it's a serious business. Yeah. But you know, he's [00:32:15] done that very successfully. Yeah. There's no doubt that if people are enjoying themselves, they perform better, they stick around [00:32:20] longer. And in that sense, it's also easier to, to find, uh, recruit and, [00:32:25] and retain good people.
So finding those people, finding people that are gonna take that [00:32:30] vision on, uh, I, I think is absolutely key to what Richard's done, certainly [00:32:35] historically. And then empowering those people to get on and giving them the, the opportunity to make [00:32:40] decisions, um, to back them when they make those decisions, to support them.
That, that engenders [00:32:45] again, an ownership in, in what you're, what you're doing. So not being afraid to make a [00:32:50] decision. You, you've gotta make decisions in life. If you don't make a decision, you're gonna, you're gonna fail. Sure. But a lot [00:32:55] of places, you, you, you know, in places that I've worked, people who make decisions are setting [00:33:00] themselves up for criticism that you get the finger pointed at you, the blame culture.
Okay. Well, and then what [00:33:05] happens is everybody, um, ducks their head down by the below the parapet and nothing happens. [00:33:10] Right. Um, you know, it's, oh, it's me. Oh, well I emailed them and then they, they haven't done it. And so if you [00:33:15] can empower people and get them to, you know, and by. By doing that, they take ownership, then [00:33:20] you deliver.
I think there's a, a, a sort of slight misnomer that people talk about customer [00:33:25] service and they imagine that virgin's all about customer service. Which, which it is, but it's customer service [00:33:30] driven by the fact that the individual people, uh, in the organization, no matter where you are, are [00:33:35] responsible and given the, the headroom to deliver.
And that's why you get, why you get [00:33:40] good customer service. 'cause you've got good staff.
James: Richard Branson, you're saying was very good then at delegating [00:33:45] decision making to the. Absolutely. The very front. Yeah. Yeah. Customer facing [00:33:50] rules. Yeah. Yeah. How, how do they do that? I mean, how do they stop the finger pointing?
Let's get my head down sort of approach. I think
Mark: because [00:33:55] it's almost become self-policing that if you get somebody in an organization that [00:34:00] does behave like that, they don't stay around for very long because the other people won't wear it. [00:34:05] Right. It's a double-edged sword in that, in that sense, and I think you've got a.
Balance that [00:34:10] responsibility with authority. Richard was never a great one for large scale analysis [00:34:15] and reams of business plans and pages of, of numbers, which coming from an accountancy background, you think, oh [00:34:20] gosh, we must produce a, you know, and, and he'd say, look, just put it on two pages. [00:34:25] And if I, if it doesn't sound good to me when I've read two pages, then we'll move on and [00:34:30] try something else.
Just put it on two pages. Just put it on two pages. That's a good one. And that's it.
James: Well, [00:34:35] I think Churchill insisted on one page, but Yeah. One page, two pages, but no [00:34:40] more than that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like a cv. Really. Yeah. You don't want more than that. Yep. So you, you then [00:34:45] transitioned sort of. From Virgin to start your own business with your business partner.
So you [00:34:50] went from employee to entrepreneur. Yeah. I know this is a journey lots of people consider, and what did you [00:34:55] learn from that and what were the pros and cons? What was on your mind when you made that leap and how's it [00:35:00] worked out? It's worked
Mark: out very well. Um, and, and we wouldn't be where we are now [00:35:05] today if I hadn't made that jump.
I think the, the, the biggest thing is and, and is quite. [00:35:10] Scary. You suddenly remove the safety net, who you're working for a, for an [00:35:15] organization with some size, you know, it's got the financial clout. And, [00:35:20] and then in Richard, in Virgin's case, the brand to back you up and back those [00:35:25] decisions. Uh, and you've got a team of people around you, you know, you, you've, you've got people who are specialists in, in [00:35:30] different fields, and, and you can, you can delegate and then suddenly you go and you, you set [00:35:35] up your own business and you've got a.
Do everything. I mean, we were always very hands on [00:35:40] and I, and I would like to think that I rolled my sleeves up and, and got stuck in
James: No, it help desk, for instance, [00:35:45] which would worry me, you know? Exactly. Yeah.
Mark: So you absolutely, you have to fix [00:35:50] it yourself. You, you, you've gotta do it yourself. And, and, and sometimes it can feel like you're, because of that, you're [00:35:55] making slower.
Progress and you, you would like, because normally you'd have [00:36:00] 10 people who'd all be going. Then a week later you'd have the, the decision. Now, now you've gotta, you've [00:36:05] gotta generate that yourself with a much smaller, smaller team. So you've got to be [00:36:10] adaptable. Um, you've got to work with people who have a similar, similar mindset, [00:36:15] but at the same time, you've gotta be very clear about your focus and, and, and what you're trying to achieve.[00:36:20]
James: When you said you, you know, there's no safety net. The word that came to my mind was, you have to have some [00:36:25] courage. Yes. I mean, well without safety net, you know, you've gotta step forward and, and [00:36:30] do so with some courage and Yeah. And yeah.
Mark: Yeah. Good
James: energy and vigor to make things happen. So you've
Mark: gotta believe in yourself and you've gotta [00:36:35] believe in the team around
James: you.
Yeah. But courage isn't a give, I mean, because there are still you, you'd still be [00:36:40] acutely aware that things can go wrong. Of course. And you, you know, you're on the high wire and you don't wanna fall [00:36:45] off.
Mark: Exactly. But
James: it does require some guts, I think, to go out and start something.
Mark: Yeah, I think, I [00:36:50] think it does.
I think any, I mean, and hats off to anybody who's, who's thinking of trying it. I mean, uh, I would say the [00:36:55] rewards are, are there, but, but also you shouldn't be afraid of failure. Yeah. You know, again, going [00:37:00] back to the example of Richard, you know, Richard set up many businesses which didn't [00:37:05] succeed. You'd have trouble finding a Virgin Kohler these days.
Well, Virgin Kohler, I remember. [00:37:10] Condom business and virgin fashion and her fme and cosmetic things, lot of [00:37:15] things, which is what you've gotta do, right? You gotta, you gotta do it. And you, and as I say, you've gotta pick yourself up, dust yourself [00:37:20] off, and, and go again if it doesn't work. And, and that's the same with with us in the airship business.
We haven't had the [00:37:25] failures, but what we, what we have had is to adapt to changing circumstances and move [00:37:30] forward and, and, you know, well, the most disappointing, we raised a lot of money in China. To [00:37:35] move that, move the business forward and meet what Lockheed were, was setting his objectives at the time.[00:37:40]
And then Donald Trump in his last administration decided to have a go at the Chinese and put tariffs in [00:37:45] place. And the whole deal fell over and there was nothing we could do about it. Oh, no. And you think, oh God, I've, I literally spent [00:37:50] probably eight, 10 weeks in the last iteration sitting in a hotel in, in Hong Kong [00:37:55] negotiating the deal, and we got it all signed and everything else.
And then, you know, they turn around and [00:38:00] say, sorry, you know. Global political. So how do you feel about that?
James: I mean, so you, so you've gotta get going. You've [00:38:05] gotta find some other,
Mark: you've then gotta avenue, you've gotta take stock and look at different avenues and [00:38:10] reengage with people, um, that, uh, that you think will be interested in, in, in [00:38:15] taking that business and working with us to take the business forward, you know, difficult.
There was a lot of things [00:38:20] that had to then be reassessed, Lockheed, reassessed, where they stood, you know, and all of this [00:38:25] takes time and all of this is outside of our, our control. Yeah. You've gotta be patient and [00:38:30] you and, and say you've gotta have that, that resilience.
James: But the environment's very unpredictable, isn't it, at the [00:38:35] moment, especially it seems to be with lots of new technologies coming on.
Yeah. Lots of disruption. Yep. [00:38:40] Yeah. And, and yours is quite a long project. Yes. You know, with a. Big [00:38:45] vision. Yeah. Is that, I mean, that's difficult, isn't it, in a, in an environment where, which is [00:38:50] essentially quite chaotic. It
Mark: is, but I think the fundamentals remain unchanged. You [00:38:55] know, there's a huge demand for the airship out there.
There's a, you know, a great customer base. [00:39:00] We know what, where, where the markets are. We've got a supportive investor base. [00:39:05] And, you know, we're engaged with, with people. We've set up a, a, a largely set up our network of, [00:39:10] of partners around the world. So, yeah. So it seems to me,
James: you know, you need to be patient.
[00:39:15] You, you are very clear on your objective and you keep going towards it. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. One [00:39:20] of our guests said, you know, the bigger the goal and the smaller the problem, you know, when you've got a, because you [00:39:25] know, well, I think, I think that that's in a way that feels like this is a case. I, I
Mark: think that's absolutely the case.
I mean, you know, [00:39:30] people often ask me what. Why do you stick at it? And I, and I think the answer is that there are very few [00:39:35] things that come across your desk where you really feel that you could be involved in something [00:39:40] that will make a huge difference to the world. And I, I don't wanna overstate it, but if you look at [00:39:45] the, um, potential to reduce.
Carbon emissions, both in terms of operations [00:39:50] and in terms of infrastructure. So not having to build roads and, and rail links in [00:39:55] places like Canada where you've got, you know, beautiful wilderness and, and improving the social and [00:40:00] economic wellbeing for the communities and the people in those regions, connecting them to the world.
You know, this is [00:40:05] something which could be transformative. We've done a lot of work with the United Nations and [00:40:10] the airship can help deliver something like 17 of the 19 strategic development goals of the [00:40:15] un, and they identify a lack of transport connectivity as one of the major, or if not [00:40:20] the major impediment to, to growth.
So this is a, a global business, and as you [00:40:25] say, it's too great to to give up on.
James: Yeah. No, I'm, I'm, I'm very clear that you are not gonna give up on it [00:40:30] now, from what you've been saying and your obviously enthusiasm and passion for it, what would you [00:40:35] say to entrepreneurs who, who, who maybe have been working through a vision of this, not the [00:40:40] same but some for years and, and, and have yet to break through, you know, and [00:40:45] your first flight has not, is yet to happen.
Yeah. But there, there will be people in all sorts of [00:40:50] lines of work who are perhaps on the passport, think that they've got further to go. [00:40:55] Yeah. What
Mark: words of wisdom would you share with them? I'd steal something from, um, c Karen Bill, [00:41:00] who I had speak some years ago, and he, he was in the process of developing [00:41:05] Cobra beer.
Yeah, I know Karen. He is a good guy. He is a friend of mine. Really good. But what did he [00:41:10] say? And he said, you know, in the path that, that he took and bearing in mind how successful it's been, he said, there [00:41:15] will be three or four times when you think this is gonna fail, whether it's [00:41:20] financing, whatever it is.
And he said, you've just, you've just gotta push through those moments. And, and believe [00:41:25] in what you're doing and you, and you will get through, you'll find a way of, of getting through it. I, I [00:41:30] think the other thing is you do to, you know, to temper that you do have to be realistic. You've gotta know, [00:41:35] and, and you've gotta have a real sense that there is a demand for what it is that you are trying [00:41:40] to, trying to build.
And I would caution people, you know, just jumping into things that. Where, where [00:41:45] they don't have the expertise and perhaps they haven't done their, their market due diligence [00:41:50] because you, on the other hand, you can waste a lot of time. If you know there's a demand out there and you know what you're [00:41:55] doing is gonna be game changing, then, then you will find a way and people will be there to support you.[00:42:00]
James: Well, so I mean, it's a sort of eyes open. Perseverance. Yes.
Mark: That's [00:42:05] required.
James: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people in the airship industry who. [00:42:10] Have missed completely the operational aspects of their, their design. So they're [00:42:15] heading off in, in directions where we think they've, you know, they've got their design [00:42:20] wrong, but they're passionate about what they're doing.
And time, time will tell, but you've got to [00:42:25] understand what it is. Um, technically the, in, in, particularly in aviation that you're trying to deliver. So
James: [00:42:30] airships in general, it sounds like are about to make quite a big comeback with, you know, you've got other people developing them and [00:42:35] Absolutely. Yeah. This could be a big thing for the next 25 years.
There's a huge amount
Mark: of, of potential for airships. [00:42:40] I mean, not least, I mean, we've talked about. Significantly reducing the carbon footprint [00:42:45] with the hybrid airship as it stands. But the hybrid airship is also on the [00:42:50] path to two zero emissions aviation. So whether it's zero net emissions [00:42:55] using su sustainable aviation fuel, or whether it's use of, um, hydrogen [00:43:00] fuel cells, battery technology to power the airships, the airships are uniquely capable.
[00:43:05] They don't have the same kind of payload penalty that a fixed wing aircraft or a helicopter would have. They don't have [00:43:10] the same volume. Issues. So you can, you can see the airship [00:43:15] being very much on the path to developing emissions. So potentially it's
James: the
Mark: first true, zero true, zero [00:43:20] flying vehicle.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's why a lot of people are interested. You know, it's, it's the [00:43:25] reduction in, in the carbon footprint is being able to access places without destroying the [00:43:30] environment to give people that opportunity in a sustainable and manageable way. [00:43:35] Oh, I wish you every
James: success with that, so, so the last sort of theme I want to pick up [00:43:40] on you.
You, you said you'd worked with Mike. Yes. Your co-founder for many years, [00:43:45] longer than many marriages. I just wanna explore that. 'cause you know, some people go into business on their [00:43:50] own. Some people go into business with family members, siblings, you know, [00:43:55] father and son, mother and daughter, whatever. You've gone into business with, someone you'd worked with before.
Yeah. [00:44:00] Um, you said you compliment each other. Uh, what, what are the sort of pros and cons of that route? [00:44:05]
Mark: I think it's, it's always great to work with people who have complimentary skills because [00:44:10] it's rare that you find somebody who doesn't benefit from input, from, from other [00:44:15] people and other. Perspectives, other thoughts and other thought processes.
So it's [00:44:20] a relationship of, of mutual respect. And we're all the time testing each [00:44:25] other and, and, and developing ideas. We don't always agree.
James: Uh,
Mark: so
James: what happens then? Yeah. When you [00:44:30] don't agree?
Mark: No, you know, we can, we can have the odd argument, but how do you, how do you make a decision
James: if you, if [00:44:35] you wanna go this way, wants to go that way?
Mark: I think we, we just put, go back, revisit it. We think about what the other person [00:44:40] said. We amass arguments to support our. Point of view or we realize that, [00:44:45] but you have to be prepared to change your mind. You have to be prepared to change your mind.
James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So there'll be occasionally when you go [00:44:50] back and say, Mike, yeah, I think you were right on.
Yeah. Abso absolutely
Mark: vice. He'll do the same Vice and vice and vice versa. [00:44:55] You know, I mean, I But you are the CEO I'm the, yeah, I'm the C He's the exec chair. He's the exec chair. So [00:45:00] that's kind of, you kind like I'm the chairman and C so I argue myself. [00:45:05] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, uh, that process. I mean, we've been more on than off.
[00:45:10] We've worked together for 30. Two years now coming up to 32 years. So we [00:45:15] know each other, we know each other well. We understand each other. We understand what our relative strengths and [00:45:20] weaknesses are and would you do friends
James: socially
Mark: or not? We tend not to socialize together. Do so. That's how we [00:45:25] find a way we we're working.
We do slightly, but yeah, I, I think it would be. Too, too much, too much. Um, you know, we're, we're [00:45:30] very happy socializing together and we have done on many famous occasions. But, uh, but I think if you, if [00:45:35] you spend all day, you're not, you don't live in the
James: same village. We don't live if you don't live in the, the same pub.[00:45:40]
So give each other. You need to give each other. Some space you do would
Mark: be, you know, too much if you were, [00:45:45] you know, there
James: together for 18 hours a day or whatever. No, I think that's what's interesting 'cause [00:45:50] in a business partnership like yours, that is different from a family situation. Yeah. I wouldn't say you're so [00:45:55] shocked, but you're kind of with each other a lot.
Yes. And you sort of discuss business over lunch or whatever. Yeah. But [00:46:00] you've can, you have some space, but obviously a very longstanding, successful working [00:46:05] partnership. Yeah.
Mark: Yeah, I know I've, I've, I've learned a huge amount from Mike over the, over the years and I like to [00:46:10] think he might have learned a few things from me as well.
I'm sure he would say he has.
James: I mean, otherwise you wouldn't still be [00:46:15] working together really, I don't think. I don't think. But um, I think that any [00:46:20] valuable relationship is one in which I. We're learning. Yeah. Um, so [00:46:25] you've also developed sort of good partnerships with international businesses, [00:46:30] corporations who who've obviously got to know and trust you.
So what, what's your [00:46:35] strategy for negotiating and maintaining those partnerships? How do you, how do you sort of develop and [00:46:40] I.
Mark: For me, it's about, about trust. Particularly when you're dealing with a new technology. People have [00:46:45] to trust you as a, as a, as an individual to deliver what you say you're going.
'cause it's a [00:46:50] vision. Uh, when all said and done, now we can point at FAA, you know, [00:46:55] design criteria and, and, and all sorts of things to back that up. But at the end of the day, they've gotta look you [00:47:00] in the eye and believe that you are gonna do what you say. You're gonna do, and I think that's the most [00:47:05] important thing.
I think for me, what I would call the old school adver adversarial nature [00:47:10] of negotiations is, is certainly not appropriate in, in what we're trying to do. You are looking for [00:47:15] common solutions. You're looking to understand the problem I. That somebody's come to [00:47:20] you with and you're looking to build a solution that will work for them [00:47:25] and, and they've gotta be convinced that you are capable and you understand what their, their issues are, [00:47:30] and you are capable of de delivering that.
That's the way I've always looked at. Negotiations, [00:47:35] not just, you know, in the current iteration, but I'm more of a collaborative [00:47:40] negotiator, um, than I am an adversarial negotiator. Well, if you wanna see
James: people again, that's [00:47:45] usually a good idea, isn't it? I mean, it's gotta work for both parts game it's gotta work.
Exactly. Unless it's just a transaction when you [00:47:50] walk away and you think, yeah,
Mark: yeah, yeah.
James: That's
Mark: sort of serious game. You're
James: trying,
Mark: you are, you know, whether it's a [00:47:55] customer you are. Or whether it's a partner, but you are hoping that somebody's gonna join you and build [00:48:00] something together, and that you are gonna provide a solution for the, for their requirements.
And, uh, I think [00:48:05] that's where, you know, you gain respect and support. Um, and, [00:48:10] and it may not work out. You know, you may find that, that, um, that, that it just doesn't work. I mean, I had somebody [00:48:15] pick up the phone. Monday or emailed, emailed me on Monday. I hadn't spoken to them for probably two and [00:48:20] a half years, and they said, oh, we bring, we've carried on working on the project, um, and we'd like to sit [00:48:25] down and revisit, and we may have a need for 5, 6, 7 airships.
If we got into the sort [00:48:30] of, well, why aren't you signing, you know, signing up now and da da da. Yeah. They probably, you know, they may never [00:48:35] have picked up the phone again. So you've gotta enter the, the process, not [00:48:40] expecting that somebody's gonna jump the, the, the first time and then in the first [00:48:45] conversation.
So again, it goes back to that, that element of patience, because things take time to [00:48:50] evolve and things. How, how many conversations
James: would you say in your experience,
Mark: um, you've done [00:48:55] sales and. I think there are, there are stages. First of all, you can tell very quickly whether we are [00:49:00] gonna be able to offer, um, a solution that's, that's economically viable [00:49:05] relatively quickly.
Secondly, uh, you can, you can tell if the person's [00:49:10] serious or not, and they have the capacity to, to do their side and what they want to do. [00:49:15] I, I wouldn't like to put a number on number of conversations. So we've got a mining client, potential [00:49:20] client on the, on the mining side. We've been talking to them for, for three years.
Right. You know, and we've had [00:49:25] regular communications during that time. Yeah. We've looked at a number of different projects. We are now one of [00:49:30] their approved logistics solutions, but they don't have a project where the airship fits at the moment. Yeah. So [00:49:35] we will carry on talking and at some point they will come back.
But there are other people who you [00:49:40] can have half a dozen conversations with and you know there's a match and you know that they've got the [00:49:45] desire. The, the hardest ones are, are governments and quasi-governmental organization. So. Um, we've been [00:49:50] talking to people down in Brazil and I've been down in Brazil and there's no doubt there's a, there's a massive role [00:49:55] for the airship in, in that part of the world.
Um, but things take time. It's by their very [00:50:00] nature it involves a lot of people. We are not the end project, so, you know, we've gotta talk to [00:50:05] people and find the project that fits with, with what the airship can. You're one of the in inputs. Yeah, we are. [00:50:10] Yeah. Yeah. The Swiss Army knife of the, of the air as I, I, oh, is that, I like that.
So what was your [00:50:15] slogan again? No plane, no problem. Yeah, no roads, no rail, no no runway, no problem.
James: No [00:50:20] roads, no rail, no runway, no problem. I like that. Yeah, that's very good. So lastly, [00:50:25] if you are a, a business owner and you're looking out for selecting a business partner or [00:50:30] collaborating with larger companies, and you've done both, you know, very significantly, [00:50:35] um, what should you be looking out for?
What, what?
Mark: What should, should be on your checklist? [00:50:40] That's a, that's a tough one again, and I don't want to keep coming back and, and, and giving [00:50:45] the same answer, but, but I think particularly with any business partner, [00:50:50] you've gotta go in. With a view to forming a long-term relationship. And if you're doing [00:50:55] that, there has to be, uh, shared vision.
There has to be, uh, an idea of shared [00:51:00] values. There has to be a trust. And I think that's particularly important if you're a relatively [00:51:05] small company and you're dealing with a, with a much larger, uh, company. I mean, there have been [00:51:10] times of. Felt that, uh, my, um, dimensional Z been in a vice. You know, you're sitting [00:51:15] between one multinational here and you're sitting, you know, uh, next to [00:51:20] another one on the other side.
Um, and you are the, you are the guy in the, in the middle being [00:51:25] squeezed. You've got. To take a, a pragmatic view at the, at the same time and, and [00:51:30] understand that that may may happen. It's your decision whether you, you see that through whether what you're being [00:51:35] offered, uh, makes sense for you. So you can always walk away.
You have to [00:51:40] establish, and we've always been, you know, whatever I've done, whether it's back in the virgin days or [00:51:45] or otherwise, being interested in working with people who we felt we, we could work with for a long [00:51:50] time. Um,
James: so you're looking for that long-term relationship. Yeah. But I like your, you you said shared [00:51:55] vision, shared values and trust.
Yeah. It's trying to sort of get underneath the [00:52:00] bonnet to establish those. Yeah. Have we got a shared vision here, I suppose? [00:52:05] Yeah. Or do I trust these people? I mean, have you got any tips on how to do that?
Mark: You've got look [00:52:10] first and foremost at the person you're dealing with. Mm. You know, do you trust that?
Individual [00:52:15] firstly. Yeah. And is that something that's gut feel? What is it? It's, it's, it's, I think it is very often [00:52:20] gut feel. I mean, you can do a lot of research nowadays on the internet. You can see what the, what people's [00:52:25] track records are. You can see what organizations' track records are. It doesn't take a lot to, you are [00:52:30] looking at me right
James: in the eye when you say that.
I'm wondering if that's what you do. You probably do a lot of it yourself, [00:52:35] don't I do, I'm always trying to assess that. That's, it's a big, it's probably the biggest question in business. Yeah. [00:52:40] Do I trust this person? Do I trust this relationship? Exactly.
Mark: And, and if you are, if you're taking a [00:52:45] job, um, you've gotta, you've gotta look at the company you're joining and think, you know, is this [00:52:50] somewhere I'm gonna be happy in the long run?
And is it some, somewhere I'm gonna be working with, with people who I [00:52:55] can, who I can trust and believe in? And it's the same with with partnerships, you know, um, one, [00:53:00] one of our greatest partnerships is, is with Ron Hyde up in, in Alaska. And, and, and there's a, [00:53:05] there's a shared vision. There's a mutual respect.
We are not experts, world [00:53:10] experts and everything, so we, we, we have to rely on local partners. Sure. You know, if we're gonna operate in [00:53:15] Alaska, we need people who have operated in Alaska to work with. We're not arrogant enough to, to [00:53:20] turn up in the am middle of the Amazon and say we know all the answers. We need people who know [00:53:25] that part of the world, um, because it's that information that's gonna combine with [00:53:30] our experience and knowledge and turn into a successful and safe business.
[00:53:35] Alaska, Amazon,
James: Kuwait. I mean, they're gonna be very, very different, aren't they? Absolute. Absolutely. Yeah. They have very different needs and [00:53:40] requirements, so having important partners in, but I like your, your emphasis on shared vision, [00:53:45] shared values and, and trust. And I, and I I like the point you made as well about [00:53:50] That's the same when you're getting a job.
Yeah. You know, as a person applying to a business, you know, [00:53:55] you should, as an individual, establish those things. Is this trustworthy [00:54:00] organization, shared version. I had
Mark: personal crossroads when I had an offer from Virgin. I had a, an offer [00:54:05] from S International. Oh, did you? And mom was to stay in London. One was to go to to Shashi, which [00:54:10] is what took me up there in the first place.
And moving, moved up from London. And, and that's what it came down to. It's, [00:54:15] it's, so you were
James: weighing
Mark: up those two companies, those two companies and saying, where do I feel at home and [00:54:20] where, where do I really believe? Where do I believe that I'm gonna work? So you had Branson in one hand and Murdoch in the other.[00:54:25]
Which one? Which one are you gonna choose? And which one do you, do you feel you can contribute those two? And you
James: [00:54:30] chose Branson and I chose Branson. That was a better fit for you, but lots of people choose Ruper Murdoch and have done quite [00:54:35] well. Absolutely, absolutely.
Mark: That's no disrespect to him, no. Quite decision.
It's kind [00:54:40] of
James: a personal decision. That's it. Knowing different people fit better in different places, different footballers [00:54:45] play better in different teams. Absolutely. No, I observe that a lot. Absolutely. You know, there's some, [00:54:50] some places better for some than others. That's fantastic. Can you repeat your slogan for [00:54:55] me?
Mark: No road. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something different. I can [00:55:00] No, no, no roads, no rail, uh, no
James: runway, no, no runways. No problem. Yeah. [00:55:05] I like that. I like that. Well, thank you so much, mark, for coming in to talk to me about this. It must pleasure, wonder, wonder, [00:55:10] wonderful vision and venture that you have in development.
It's been an absolute pleasure and um, I look forward to seeing your [00:55:15] airships. Far and wide, maybe I'll get to write in. Oh, you, you certainly will. [00:55:20] I like that very much. And um, I always ask two questions at the end. Yeah. Which [00:55:25] I ask everybody. The first is, um, there's a clue, you know, what is it that gets you up on a [00:55:30] Monday morning?
Yeah, that's my
Mark: first question. You wanna have a go at that? Yeah. I think in some, I've already really answer that. And, [00:55:35] and that is, you know, you get up in the morning and I get up in the morning because I feel what. [00:55:40] We are doing as a, as a company and as a team is, is important and potentially, you know, [00:55:45] has the ability to transform the way we move things around the world and and transform the [00:55:50] lives of people that are less fortunate and less well off than, than than we are.
[00:55:55] Um, I'll, I'll, I'll give an example to that and, and, and it is actually an example that Mike uses [00:56:00] quite often 'cause he's, um, himself suffered from, from cancer. If we take on MO mobile [00:56:05] radiology. Um, equipment, uh, with RAD Aid up to the north of Canada, then we can deliver [00:56:10] services like cancer screening. Um, and I sat on a plane and, uh, uh, coming [00:56:15] back from a remote part of Canada and, uh, the lady sitting next to me was pregnant and had a, [00:56:20] some complications in her pregnancy.
She'd flown two hours. To [00:56:25] get to the plane that I was on in a lighter aircraft to fly two hours to get to Montreal, just to have a [00:56:30] scan. And you think, you know, these are things we take for granted. And that transformative [00:56:35] ability is, is something that, you know, if you can't get up in the morning to to, to work on [00:56:40] that, then.
You might not be getting up at all. Exactly. [00:56:45]
James: Alright, well that's good to hear. That's good to hear. And then my, my last question, five, five years
Mark: time, [00:56:50] you know,
James: I wanna ask you, where do you see yourself in five years time? Have, we'll
Mark: have a fleet, fleet of air ships, a [00:56:55] fleet of airships. We'll have a fleet of air ships and we'll be operating those airships and, and, uh, and [00:57:00] delivering what we've set out to deliver, whether, wherever that is in, in the world.
Fantastic. Well, I [00:57:05] wish you every success with that. Thank you. I look forward to seeing the fleet,
James: the flight. Yeah, that'd be great. [00:57:10] Good luck with that, mark.
Mark: Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Really appreciate
James: it. Good talking to you. [00:57:15] Thank you, mark, for joining me on all About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, [00:57:20] chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company.
If [00:57:25] you'd like to find out more about Reed Mark and Straight Line Aviation, all [00:57:30] links are in the show notes. See you next [00:57:35] [00:57:40] time.
All about business is brought to you by Reed Global. Learn more at: https://www.reed.com/
This podcast was co-produced by Reed Global and Flamingo Media. If you’d like to create a chart-topping podcast to elevate your brand, visit https://www.Flamingo-media.co.uk