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This week on 'all about business', James Reed meets Tom Hodgkinson, Founder and Editor-in-Chief of The Idler Magazine, a publication that teaches its readers the value of slowing down.
In this episode, we learn about the philosophy of idling, challenge traditional beliefs that hard work is inherently good, and explore the idea that true fulfilment, in both life and business, can be found in activities that restore the soul, body, and mind.
About Tom
Tom Hodgkinson founded The Idler Magazine in 1993 together with his friend Gavin Pretor-Pinney. Tom has worked over 20 years in editing and advertising, while also writing several books on the philosophy of idling and its benefits.
00:35 the Puritan work ethic
08:03 Tom Hodgkinson's journey
12:03 starting the Idler magazine
14:41 The Idler Academy
25:10 modern work ethic and AI predictions
33:30 the bookshop dilemma
38:26 challenges of running a business
47:20 the digital pivot
50:43 Idler Retreats and experiences
52:47 the philosophy of idling
Check out The Idler’s website:https://www.idler.co.uk/
Follow The Idler on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-idler/
Buy Business for Bohemians, by Tom Hodgkinson: https://uk.bookshop.org/p/books/business-for-bohemians-live-well-make-money-tom-hodgkinson/380120?ean=9780241244807
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
James: [00:00:00] Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
James: In a world where hustle culture is the norm, and 45% of small business owners are suffering from burnout, is maximizing productivity really the only way to build a successful business? Today's guest, Tom Hodgkinson believes Idleness is key to creating a life and business that's truly fulfilling. He is the founder and editor-in-chief of the Idler Magazine, where he encourages his readers to slow down, have fun, and live well.[00:01:00]
James: In this episode, we discuss the idler philosophy, how to turn your passion into a business, and why the world's most successful entrepreneurs embrace idols. Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Tom Hodgkinson. Tom is gonna have a lot to say about the subject of idling. He's written several books on the theme.
James: One called How To Be Idle, another The Idle Parent, and also an Idlers Manual. Tom is an avowed self-avowed anarchist. I think he's the first anarchist on our show, and he's also an entrepreneur, publisher, and he runs an academy, the Idler Academy with his partner Victoria, where people go and learn things all around idling as a theme.
James: So idling is your. Big theme you're wearing for those who can't see a t-shirt with a wonderful red snail on it. Tom, the question on my mind that sort of just, I can't get outta my head to start with, I wanna [00:02:00] understand this philosophy, but the question on my mind is, is there a difference between idling, as you call it?
James: Just being lazy. Frankly,
Tom: there were loads of synonyms for, uh, for lazing around Loing, lollygagging and so on, but I felt that idling as a word or idler had positive feeling about it. Actually. It's some, it's, it's a decision that you take, you know, you don't want to be caught up in the rat race full-time.
Tom: You want to kind of slow down a bit. You want to take some control over your time. And idling could mean something like doing your own thing, or idling could mean. A kind of a freedom to do something that you want to do, so in a paradoxical way, as you suggested, you know, in kind of embracing idling.
Tom: People often become quite busy. In my case, I didn't really feel I could have suited the more conventional world of work, so my option was to become some sort of a freelancer or start my own business. Well, of course, both of those things also have their pressures and worries, and you might end up, you know, working [00:03:00] pretty hard.
James: But for me, so in pursuit of idleness, you have become busy. Is this this Quite busy but quite busy? Not too busy too. When I think of the word idling, you see little signs around saying no idling. But I think that's to do with engines running in the street. But an engine that's idling is a. How to go forward, isn't it?
Tom: It it's about, it can go forward, it's taking a rest, you know, it's an important part of, uh, for me, idling is a very, very important part of life that we've essentially neglected, you know, particularly over the last few hundred years. And most older cultures, you know, the religious culture actually provides idling days off bank holidays, feast days, festivals and so on.
Tom: You know, timing, church. Mosque or you know, synagogue or what, whatever it is. So praying is a form of idling. Is it? I think praying is a, definitely a form of idling. Absolutely. And I think, you know, contemplation is a form of idling. You know, what we now call mindfulness or meditation is a form of idling.
Tom: It's a chance to sort of get off the treadmill, escape the sort of pressures of things like status and money and all the things that the so-called [00:04:00] sort of real world. Imposes on us.
James: Well, I like work, but that's why I wanted to explore this subject.
Tom: Yeah, well, it it, it, it's interesting 'cause actually work is a really weird word, isn't it?
Tom: Like what does it actually mean? There's work, there's play are the opposites. It's work something that you don't want to do or could you turn work into something that you do want to do. That's what I've attempted to do anyway. I saw work is something I didn't particularly want to do, but I had to do for money.
Tom: So in that situation, you either sort of perhaps, you know, change your mindset so that you enjoy your job, you change your job, or change your whole situation and maybe do the thing you really want to do. Which in my case was, you know, journalism, book writing, and to start my own magazine.
James: Right. So I mean, you talk about working for money, I mean, everyone needs to earn a living.
James: The aristocratic ideal I think was sort of founded on some of other people working and them sitting in large houses. The idle rich. Yeah, the idle rich. Yeah. But I mean, that's not what you're talking about here, is it? Is it?
Tom: No, because, because that's obviously only happen to a few people and in any case, that's [00:05:00] in many cases immoral.
Tom: I think, you know, a lot of fortunes have been built on, well, quite recently on slavery, you know, more recently on exploitation of people in factories before that. Well, Henry VIII stole land and buildings from the church and gave them to his mates, you know, and then they were able to live off the rent.
Tom: That's not really what I'm talking about. So, living off, as you said, living off the toilet of other people. I don't think that's really kind of what I, that's all the
James: time idling. You are commending to, no, but I think you,
Tom: you could be a little sort of mini aristocrat in your own. Guess by doing. Oh, so
James: how do you do this?
James: Yeah. Well, I guess by, so you, so you're not gonna do immoral idling, you know, like these people, you've been describing Henry VII and his ilk, but you, you want to find a life where you have more time. Yeah. And you are calling it an idle life, maybe. How do you accomplish that as someone living now in 2025?
Tom: There are all sorts of little moments in the day I think that you can sort of grab Now. Lots of people, for example, have a lunch break. Well, in America, I know, you know, in some companies it's sort of frowned upon to go out at your lunch break because you're supposed to be sort of working really hard.
Tom: [00:06:00] But I think that's a quick thing to do to sort of reclaim your lunch break. And actually an hour is quite a lot of idling time. When I used to work in High Hope and at the Sunday Mirror Magazine, which is very near where we are now. You know, I would go out at. My lunch break, wander around a church, sit on a park bench, probably have a little bit of a dose, you know, read some poetry, eat my sandwich.
Tom: And that was quite sort of blissful I felt. So you ever get
James: moved on?
Tom: Well, yeah. There is this prejudice against hanging around doing nothing. Yeah, there is. That's with
James: intent. That's a crime or an sense. Yeah, it's a crime. Like, it's like
Tom: stop sitting still, like do something, you know? Yeah, yeah. Get on with.
James: So you're encouraging people to lie on benches, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. As
Tom: long as you're not stopping someone else from sharing bench sitting on it.
James: Which would be, which would be discourteous. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So tell me about your journey. How did you, how did you start out in your career and, and what drew you in this direction?
James: I mean, what put you off, you know, a conventional route, maybe doing a graduate scheme at a major law firm as you just described into this more sort of esoteric [00:07:00] Yeah. Career choice.
Tom: I really kind of went into the family business 'cause both my parents were Fleet Street Hacks. They both did well in, in Fleet Street, so journalists, journalists when, when it was really sort of thriving, you know, they, they worked at the, the places like the Mirror Group Sunday People Daily Mail.
Tom: Well, those were good jobs back
James: in the day when newspapers carried a lot of advertising, weren't they?
Tom: Absolutely. They, they were, they were great jobs, very well paid. They weren't too hardwork. My mom had a four day week, you know, they're in the pub half the time, but they made, they made loads and my parents gradually started doing better in their own lives, and therefore my brother and I were taken out of the.
Tom: State schools when we were quite young and put into prep schools and you know, we became sort of P them. My parents really. And I went to a school called Westminster and then went to Oxbridge Jesus College Cambridge did English. So it was a really sort of like, you know, sophisticated education, which I very much enjoyed and I enjoyed the academic side, but I also had this other thing at our school.
Tom: It was quite cool to be sort of punky, you know? So we were fans of the Clash Sex Pistols Joy division. We [00:08:00] used to love going to gigs, so. Living in London as a sort of 14-year-old public school boy, you know, you actually got this sort of influence of underground music. And I also enjoyed the philosophy at school.
Tom: So there were these two things kind of combining, and then I played in punk bands at university. A lot of the punk bands that we liked ran their own record labels. I. And I thought that was quite an imp impress, like small business, taking rough trade. Well then I went on to
James: work for Rough Trade. You worked for Rough Trade?
James: Yeah, no, I remember Rough Trade being one of the labels. Yeah, that's the label. London. But they also
Tom: had, they had a shop and um, it was in Portobello. In Portobello. That's, I remember it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's still there. The fact they've expanded, they got a big one in Brick Lane. I spent a year there and they also had a skateboarding shop.
Tom: And the people I met there were very entrepreneurial, you know, they were sort of very creative. They were running ine, putting on club nights, I don't know, you know, playing in bands, designing t-shirts, starting up. Skate wear labels. And then what happened after that? Well, you know, I found the people who ran rough [00:09:00] trades actually quite inspiring.
Tom: Pete and Nigel. Nigel still runs it. It was their own business that they wanted to run. So I ended up with this weird mix of wanting to start my own business and also sit around doing nothing that is quite difficult. It's quite hard. Impossible, I would say. But then I got a job at the Sunday Mirror Where On Magazine, and I was there for two years.
Tom: That was 1990, a long time ago. Alistair Campbell was the. Political editor wrote The Daily Mirror, to give you an idea of how long ago it was. It was still owned by Maxwell, and that was sort of started as three days a week. Then I did five days a week, very junior position as a kind of researcher. I didn't like it particularly because I was too snooty.
Tom: I wanted to be sort of writing about romantic poetry, although, you know, but it was very good training, actually. Very good magazine training for two or three years. Then I was sacked and at this
James: point, well, I must ask, why were you sacked? Remember it
Tom: was, they just said, oh, we're sort of cutting down and stuff.
Tom: I, I, I was kind of a freelancer so I didn't have a proper contract or anything, you know, and then, so I was on the doll and in a way, sort of free [00:10:00] to do my magazine project. I've been turning it over in my mind, probably for, for two years. The Idler.
James: We are delighted that you are listening to this episode.
James: Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and action advice. To help your business and or career. So the, so you decided to start a magazine?
Tom: Yeah, and I went to see my friend G. How,
James: how did you finance that? How did you set that?
Tom: Well, the finance, essentially it cost 800 quid.
Tom: In 1993 to get a whole
James: magazine published to,
Tom: to for, to print a thousand copies. Yeah. And do the reproduction and the, the sort of necessary things that we had to do. My friend Gab had a computer. He had an Apple Mac, so that was okay. We did it in his flat, in his back room, and that money came from Lifetime subscribers.
Tom: A bit of money from my mom, maybe friends and family. Friends and family. You know, 50 quid here, a hundred quid there. I think actually we got 790, 90 pounds, and then my [00:11:00] friend, gal's girlfriend gave us the last tenner and then I went and sold it. Literally got on my bicycle. Did you sell enough to
James: cover the cost?
Tom: Well, we did. I think we sold just about enough and we got some good publicity too with my friend Claire, who's now very senior at The Guardian. I went around all the newspapers dropping a copy off. Right. And we got the good publicity in the day Telegraph, for example. Right. Gavin and I went on a radio show, so it, it started quite well.
Tom: We got a little bit of coverage. So that was your
James: initial business.
Tom: That was, but that I wasn't really expecting it to make any money. In fact, it didn't make any money for the next 27 years.
James: Right.
Tom: But it led to lots of other stuff.
James: Oh, okay. So that sort of, that was the initiator. So what, what other things did you do after that then?
Tom: Freelancing for all sorts of newspapers and Magazine Vogue and the Independent and stuff. And after publishing for about only about a year or two, I think we'd printed about four or five copies. The Guardian Marketing Department sort of picked up on it and brought us into the guardian fold. Right. Uh, and we stayed there for three years and in fact, we ended up running a department special [00:12:00] ideas department there.
James: Right. Okay. So you've done some collaborations. So the, how many additions of the idler have there been, now you've got the latest one behind you I can see has got Michael Palin on the cover. Yeah. So what, what number is that?
Tom: That's a hundred and.
James: Three number 103. Unbelievably. Yeah. Unbelievably. So that's, that's been going very consistently.
James: But then you've added to it. I mean, you've started this academy. Yeah, with courses, and you also do trips for fellow idler to have idling experiences in Ireland. Idling
Tom: experiences, Victoria and I, my partner and our three small children moved to North Devon for 12 years, and that's where I kind of wrote most of my books.
Tom: And while we were there, we had this idea of an idler academy. So like Plato's Academy or Well, any kind of academy, and we all know how frequently that word is used. It comes from the groves of academ. You know, it was the area outside of Athens where Plato first taught his students and one of the first philosophical schools.
Tom: And that was a real inspiration for me. The ancient Greek philosophers, is that what the word means? Okay. Yeah. That's [00:13:00] where it comes from, yeah. Oh, right. And you know, Aristotle had his lyceum, right? Which was also in Athens. And Epicurus started his own school, which was called The Garden, also near Athens.
Tom: The stoics taught in the marketplace and there was an amazing period where there were several philosophical schools all inspired by Socrates and all saying to people, look, you really need to take more time for leisure. I. Whoever you are, the women in the safe as this before as well. Was this before Greek
James: culture disappeared, or, or was it It was.
James: It was. Or was it, it heyday It This was sort of for, it wasn't for the Romans occupied them, was it? Or what? No, it was a bit
Tom: earlier. It was like third, fifth century. It was absolute heyday. Heyday, yeah. And it was when the, the famous Greek playwrights were operating, you know, aristos, whatever. The Greek tragic, uh, playwrights an amazing period in Athens, a hundred thousand people, a self-governing city, you know, and the philosophers were saying, but people were anxious too, as we are today.
Tom: So there was a lot of anxiety around, and there were perpetuate war with Sparta, for example. And it was a kind of warlike culture. It [00:14:00] was very dynamic, and they were built incredible things like the Parthenon, you know, yes. During that period. But there was, you know, there was a, a level of anxiety. The philosophers came along and started teaching people how to become less anxious.
James: That's interesting.
Tom: And it's like very well stoic,
James: stoic philosophy is quite in vogue these days. There's lots of,
Tom: well, stoic philosophy is amazing. I, I'll just finished writing a book about it. Um, have you, and, um,
James: why is it amazing? What's good about it? Give us a quick heads up.
Tom: The basic principle that everyone will quote is, um, you can't control external events, but you can control your reactions to those events.
James: Yes.
Tom: So if something bad happens, you know, is it all in the mind? So if something bad could happen, but it's only bad if you allow it to, if you allow yourself to think it's bad. I mean, it's a tall order. It's a very, very tall order. But the stoics say, you know, even when I'm being tortured on the rack, I remain happy because it's only my mind that says this is a bad thing.
Tom: Um, they say that, you know, I, I can remain happy if my children die. My wife dies if I lose all my money, if I lose my job, you know, whatever it is. [00:15:00] So they're saying that happiness comes from within.
James: So, so is your sort of idling. Idler philosophy are quite aligned with this stoicism, do you feel? Or is it, so is that something different you've just described?
James: Well,
Tom: well, I think s stoics, yeah, a little bit, but I think it's actually a bit joyless and the stoic
James: side of, yeah. Lacking in fun. Yeah, I can imagine. Sort of puritans, yeah. Identifying with that to an extent.
Tom: I think they liked it.
James: I did. Did they? But you are not keen on Puritanism by the, you've already had a guy, Henry da.
James: Yeah. Well he wasn't a Puritan, was he? But he sort of, no, he
Tom: wasn't, but he was precursor to, then he set the stage for it because, um. When I was writing my books, I read a lot of medieval history and started to realize that the, a lot of us have this sort of caricature of the middle Ages, which is like everyone was kind of a leper and, you know, living in mud, mud huts and very unsophisticated.
Tom: There was no science. People were superstitious and so on. But actually it was, it was, it wasn't anything like as much as a dark age as, as people say, it was much less Monty Python than, than, than we think. A lot of fun, you know, it was [00:16:00] quite a sort of merry culture. We have this idea of me, England. And I grew up with people saying, oh, Mary England was a myth.
Tom: You know, the sort of time before Henrys thei. But historians I've read recently, you know, contemporary historians, you know, professors, not crazy. People say that. Well, actually, the late middle Ages particularly, there was a lot of fun and dancing map polls, boozing, the church encouraged it. They, they wanted people to enjoy themselves.
Tom: Why did they encourage it? They encouraged it because it bonded communities. Also it raised money. So they, they sold the beer. So they, they, there you go. There was a catch instead of like, they, they ran the breweries, huh? Yeah. It's like rave culture instead of, hang on, instead of cracking down on rave culture, let's put the raves on.
Tom: Yeah. Then we can make them money. And I think they thought it, it allowed, they made
James: the wine, the bear, and they did, they profited from it. But people were happy. You're saying, but
Tom: people were happy. A maybe there was blowing off tensions as well. I know. You know,
James: and then, and then, so Mary England was real, was it Mary England was real.
James: And, and you are trying to recreate it is
Tom: that there's [00:17:00] elements of it that are really fun to, um, to bring back with, you know, guilt free versions, you know, big feasts. Funnily enough, pilgrimage is coming back. A lot of these medieval customs, I think are, are, are coming back in again. Pilgrimages, pilgrimage, yeah.
James: Really
Tom: people going on large groups. Because, because pilgrimage was also banned by the Puritans. But the thing, the thing that's particularly, I suppose, relevant to the idler and, and James to what you do as well at Reed, was this idea of how kind of work, the work ethic, you know, appeared.
James: Tell me about that.
James: How did that appear? Well, very briefly,
Tom: you know, like we have an image of Puritans in black hats. There's a Puritan in Shakespeare called Malvolio in 12th Night, and he's pish. Self important and crucially, these, the new, the new Puritans who felt that the church had become corrupt. You know, priests were selling indulgences and all that sort of thing.
Tom: The, the, the, the clerics were, you know, feathering their own nests and it just got hopelessly out of hand and totally lost touch with the [00:18:00] real original idea behind Christianity, Calvin and Luther, you know, so Calvin Luther usher a new sort of era and they were very keen on work. In the way that the medieval people had, obviously they worked, they made things and you know, but work wasn't, it was less of a sort of a cultural religion.
James: Um, so they elevated work.
Tom: They elevated work, and they made it close to godliness.
James: Why did they do that? Or what sort of thing behind that? Um,
Tom: well, I think partly they did it because it went hand in hand with, well. It was kind of an, an individualism actually. They didn't like being told what to do. Like there were people at the time who said, why, why should I, how come I'm not allowed to fight on a, on a Monday?
Tom: Why do I have to go to these feast days? Uh, but also it was a, it was very much a religious thing because they considered the, this, these ASEs to be poppish. Superstitious and sort of old fashioned. So they wiped out all those feast days. You know, Crispus was sort of nearly banned. Uh, it was certainly banned in Boston and they tried to ban it under Cromwell a bit later.
Tom: So there was an [00:19:00] attack on the festive culture, but also they thought that the festive culture, I. You know, led people to getting drunk fornicating, having children outta wedlock, and therefore those people were going straight to hell. But if you essentially got people onto the straight and narrow, working hard, turning up on time, avoiding enjoying themselves too much, you know, life became a more serious business, I think, more or less.
Tom: And we. There it is a very complicated series of reformations, counter reformations, and eventually those puritans, as we know, sailed off to America with their black hats.
James: Well, I was just thinking about that. The Mayflower was a ship of Plymouth brethren, wasn't it? Yeah. That went to America with those view, with those ideas, or took those ideas to America.
James: They took
Tom: those ideas to American. They what? What a they. What the success they made it. It has, it's been an amazing success, hasn't it? I mean, an incredibly sort of dynamic culture. If the
James: very England crowd had gone, do you think it would've been the same?
Tom: The very England crowd, they still would've been sort of like bouncing around the maple and passing out in a ditch.
James: So there is something, so this culture that emerged [00:20:00] with the, the black Haded Puritans that you described. Still pervades the way we view a lot of things today. Is that what you're saying?
Tom: Yeah. And I think the industrial revolution came along after that too, and that that also accelerated this whole thing.
Tom: So technology extended the working hours because we had light bulbs, new machines came in, which could work 24 7. So that meant that the working day should be extended. So the, the medieval people had, they had this, you know, there, there wasn't any electorate light obviously. Um, and they, they, they were actually against overwork because it might give you a.
Tom: It was a more collective cooperative culture, largely speaking. I'm just, I'm slightly generalizing. I, I know it was much more complicated. We took about 500 years, but generally speaking, you know, you had a guild system of business, um, and the guilds were like a sort of a union, but they, they also owned the means of production.
Tom: Um, and they fixed the prices and they limited the working out. It's a bit like a union might do today, because if you worked. You're [00:21:00] not supposed to work. It might give you a non unfair advantage of your brother in the guild. Or if you work by candlelight, you know, you, you produce inferior materials, right?
Tom: And things are obviously less mechan, less mechanized, you know, so, but the machines, if you've invested a million pounds in a machine or whatever it is, then you want to get maximum productivity out of it. Hence very long working days in the early 19th century and women and children working, and also the, the migration from, you know, from countryside to town because the new machines needed lots of people to work on them.
James: Well, I, I was thinking when you were saying that the sort of communal rural society in the Middle Ages, there wouldn't have been a lot of work to do in the winter because you harvested the crops, you'd plant 'em in the spring. You make Mary in the winter perhaps, and have big festival on 12 days of Christmas and all that.
James: Absolutely. It was, it was a natural time to have a festival. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, I can see there was a pattern to life that these, these innovations disrupted and we are now getting new innovations that are likely to disrupt us [00:22:00] again, especially, you know, this AI. Revolution That's right upon us. Can you see anything in history that might reassure us about what's coming next?
James: Or are we gonna be working even harder in this new world of ai? Or are we not gonna be working at all? Some people are saying there won't be any jobs left. What do you think about this?
Tom: I, I, I, you know, I think there needs to be a, a good balance. Um, thinking about ai, it's hard to predict my well, although I will make a prediction, which is that.
Tom: It's not, not gonna be anything like, as good or bad as people are saying it's gonna be something in the middle. I'm indifferent. You know, we've had this before, you know, remember six years ago everyone was talking about the robots are coming. Um, the, in the seventies people were talking about this, this amazing amount of laser that we were going to have.
Tom: What would we do with it all? Because machines become more sophisticated. The, the working day gets shorter. So I don't think ai, I mean. Clearly AI is affecting some jobs. It's not gonna take them all away. AI can't [00:23:00] build a house. You know, I mean there, there are certain obvious things that it simply can't do.
Tom: Um, again, in the industrial revolution of this idea that the machines would do all the work, but somehow it doesn't seem to well ha end up like that, um, under the conditions of, you know, capitalism or whatever you call it. Actually the work, you know, the working day got longer. Shouldn't you know if you have new technology, shouldn't we, sort of as a collective thing?
Tom: Oh, that's great. Now we only have to work 30 hours a week. I was, I did a do Dory story in the Idol about, um, uh, Serge Brin, you know, the founder of Google. I. And you would've thought that he might be giving himself a little bit of time off now. I mean, he's probably nearly 60. He's, he started one of the biggest companies in the world.
Tom: It turns over $250 billion a year in advertising sales. You know, I mean, he's made an absolute fortune, but because they want to compete with ai, he's got a, he's running a new AI department and he keeps sending memos to his staff to encourage him to work harder and harder, sleep under the desk and this sort of thing.
Tom: So, you know, that's. That's the work ethic, I think sort [00:24:00] of gone a bit crazy. There were philosophers in the thirties who were like, John May Narain, the Philosoph, the Economist, you know, they thought we were working too hard then. And that a same society would come down to, uh, just very slowly, gradually reduce the, the working week, which has happened.
Tom: You know? Didn't
James: Bertand Rus have a view about
Tom: this? And Bertram Musel def was definitely agreed. What was his thing?
James: What was his thing?
Tom: Well, he, he wrote an essay called, in Praise of Iness, which, you know, in praise of Iness imp praise of Iness. Yeah.
James: Alright.
Tom: Um, because he says that work in itself is not good.
Tom: You know, so we say, oh, hard work is good, but hard work is not necessarily good because you could be working very hard for something bad. Um, you could be working very hard selling heroin. I mean, you could be working very hard. I. As a, I mean, I hope that's not a glib example, but you know, you, you, you, um, the Nazis worked hard.
Tom: I mean, you know, so just working hard itself, torturers work hard, you know, um, and he might be working hard doing something that's, that's immoral. So I think he was saying that, you know, work [00:25:00] itself is not a moral good.
James: Um, didn't he have some thoughts about innovation as well, or?
Tom: Well, he did. He thought that, you know, if you, if you got.
Tom: A new, a new machine, then you should reduce the, it was the, it was the PIN factory, wasn't it? I
James: think so, yeah. So, so let's say
Tom: you've got a pin factory and you get a new machine and you know, you've got a hundred, uh, you know, employees in the factory and you get a new machine and, and this machine allows you to make a.
Tom: The same amount of pins, but in half the time. So Bertram Russell said that, you know, a, a sort of kind society as probably we would say, would say, oh, this is great. You a hundred workers, you've been working 50 hours a week. We've got this new machine. You only have to work 25 hours now. So you've got more time with your family, you've got more time to sort of.
Tom: For your own pursuits or creative pursuits, you've got more time for sport, you've got more time for church. You know, you've got more time for cooking and making things, building, looking after your home, all these important things. I think, you know, looking after yourself, looking after your soul, which is [00:26:00] what philosophy's about all these things need time.
Tom: If we devote. All our life to work. We haven't got enough time for other equally important stuff. Um, so, but, but, but the, but that doesn't happen. What they do is sack half the workers
James: or produce twice as many pins.
Tom: Yeah. I was thinking, yeah, that's why I do, yeah. That that was the Yeah. Shows. Yeah. No, this is great.
Tom: We can make more pins so. So then you might flood the market with pins. I mean, not
James: the, you'll put someone else out of business who's still got the old machine. I dunno. But there is a sort of relentlessness to competition. And
Tom: there is, and it's capitalism isn't there?
James: That is quite,
Tom: it's, it's, it's exciting.
Tom: Um, forgiving
James: in that respect, but also exciting. It
Tom: is brutal, but it's exciting and um, but you know, I think the idler we're trying to say, yeah, that's all fine, but you know, we need this other voice, the philosophical voice that's constantly saying, okay, but you know, just slow down a bit. Look after yourself.
James: Alright, so, you know, we're talking about entrepreneurs, you know, a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs and it, it [00:27:00] occurs to me that for most entrepreneurs the idea of idling might feel a bit alien and, you know, do you think it's possible to be the CEO of a successful company and also an idler?
Tom: I think it is.
Tom: Um, I had a. Chat with Luke Johnson once the entrepreneur, and he said he's very anti-idling. Uh, he's very, very hardworking.
James: He's been a guest on this podcast.
Tom: Well, he, he's, he's amazing. I mean, he's done incredible things, you know, most famously probably Pizza Express, but it's, you know, this is quite a brutal world.
Tom: He's in that, that he's in and he's got a lot of things on, on his plate, I suppose. So he does have to work hard, but I think, you know, CEOs. Could all slow down a bit because as everyone knows from their own experience, you don't make good decisions when you're tired, you don't have good ideas. When you're tired, you don't manage well.
Tom: When you're tired, you know, you slow down horribly and you get quite, you can get quite sort of techy. So the CEO in particular needs to make sure that she or he is, you know, taking time off. Taking a break, you know, going for [00:28:00] walks. I dunno whether it's true, but there's some hock. Full story. You know, Warren Buffet takes every Friday off.
Tom: I dunno, it is, maybe not him, but it's someone like that just to go for a walk and to think, and also, you know. Couldn't he do that on Saturday? You, you're, you know, you're busy catching up with your kind of domestic stuff point taken, so you to
James: to to clear your head and have some space to clear your head.
Tom: Entrepreneurs are creative people actually, aren't they? They have ideas. Yeah. Yeah.
James: And you, and you, and it's a long game. I mean, you, it is a marathon, not a sprint, so you can't. You don't wanna exhaust yourself or burn out if there are any. What are the benefits of, for businesses of idling? I mean, is there, is this a philosophy that you can apply to your company or organization usefully?
Tom: Yes, I think it is because it's about, you know, keeping a distance from it. I know from my own personal experience, it's really hard. Victoria and I ran a, a bookshop for five years. I mean, that really was actually very hard work compared with what I've been doing before, which is writing books and I was going, so selling books is harder than writing [00:29:00] them.
Tom: Is it much harder? Much harder Gives respect to anyone in retail. 'cause it's really hard. We had, uh, events in the evening. We were quite good at the events, but the actual everyday business of running a shop and it was a, the idea was coffee house, like an 18th century coffee house and bookseller. So you could come and have a coffee, buy books, talk about ideas, you know, um.
Tom: But it didn't, it didn't look like a bookshop. So people came in and just sat there all day and then left without buying a book or, or even buying a coffee. They thought it was a, like a library. They were
James: just idling. Right. I mean, why are you upset? They just idling. You been saying to us, you should go and drop on a park bench.
James: They just came into your shop and live the dream. And they talked, yeah, I
Tom: gotta, I gotta paid the rental That mate and the staff. You're now sounding like a capitalist. Well, this is the thing that, that's what I, that was the weird thing though. Weird kind of, um, mix. And I, I, I, I tackled this in a book called Business for Bohemians, you know, because Yeah, tell me about
James: that.
James: What was that? That, that's sitting right behind you. Yeah. So tell me about that project. What was that about and why did you do
Tom: it? It was kind of a story about [00:30:00] experiences running this, uh, uh, small business bookshop and also trying to keep the magazine going and, uh, some, some publishing projects and a bit of consultancy that we did various things to try and make ends meet.
Tom: And I realized that, you know, I suppose I'm a sort of creative type of person, not really naturally very sort of businesslike. Um, but if I want to avoid having a full-time job and make money after my own business, then I needed to learn about business. You know, it's not something you just know. It's, it's a skill in itself.
Tom: Yeah. So you realize
James: that, I realize that I try teach
Tom: myself, you know. And, but also wanted to help other people avoid the same mistakes that we had made. And so the book is about all the different aspects of business. You know, pricing, marketing, spreadsheets, you know, how to sort of stay resilient. And, you know, I do talk about the stoics in the book too, because that's, they got some useful advice for business people who are under stress, you know?
Tom: What's that? I. Well, I think take, take, you know, detach yourself from it. Um, yeah. Maybe it's not that important. There's this [00:31:00] thing catastrophizing. Mm. You've probably heard this word, people in it's like, oh my God, I have this going wrong. And like, I used to stand in the shop and go, what's the point? What's the point?
Tom: All this hard work you put in. And then, you know, you have a whole day of kind of, and comes in catastrophizing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's to be avoided. So just to, just to be one step detached. I suspect you are very good at this, James. And, you know, you can sort of step back from it and not allow it to kind of stress you out too much, but.
Tom: That probably comes with training, you know? But I found that quite difficult. So I got better at it. But, and then also things like just learning to be sensible with money. Also, how do you sell, they're, they're all very, very difficult arts, I think. Um. So, you know, I'm, I'm slightly cautious if I say to people, oh, well, quit your job, start your own business.
Tom: You know, it is, it's, it's very difficult.
James: There's a lot involved. Well, I commend your book business for Bohemians to people who wanna do that. Thanks. 'cause I think it's got a lot of interesting and useful content. And it's from your own lived experience, isn't it?
Tom: It is. It is. And James, [00:32:00] you were very, you were very great.
Tom: You came and gave talks on how to recruit people. I remember doing
James: that. Yeah. And so I think that's a, that's a good initiative, but. Is it possible to be, to, to live that life, you know, to earn enough as a sort of bohemian as you described it, you know, realistically, I mean, is this a, is this an avenue that people can.
James: In 2025?
Tom: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, you know what I mean, necessarily making sort of millions of, or certainly not billions. Mm-hmm. Um, if you are, if you are, if you, if you want to do that, this thing, whatever it is, you know, and monetize your hobby, perhaps monetize your hobby. I mean, I, I, I may, maybe it's a grandiose comparison, but, you know, I remember interviewing Damien Hurst many, many years ago and he said, my business model is the Beatles.
Tom: I thought that was a really good comment. You know, the Beatles Okay. They were obviously there a special case. You know, we, we can't, what's he mean by that? Well, what he meant was that, um, they were enjoying themselves doing what they wanted, but they were also very good at the sort of business side. And they were very kind of ambitious, you know?
Tom: Um, [00:33:00] so I'm, I'm. Although this is all about idling, I'm also sort of quite ambitious. It is like John Lennon was, a lot of Beatle thongs also are about the importance of idling. The wheels go around. Imagine all the people, these kind of stoic ideas. But they
James: worked really hard, didn't they? I mean, they played for many years in clubs before they sort of,
Tom: and so yeah, it's just, but they love what they were doing, but they love what they were doing.
Tom: And Paul McCartney had this phrase that we've had a hard day's play. So it's, it's when playing work gets sort of mixed up together. But I, you know, that's the kind
James: of sweet spot you're looking for. That's the
Tom: sort of sweet spot. And it, it is almost like a, it's a sort of vocation really. Um, but Victoria and I went through a period of being sort of quite skimmed and that wasn't much fun at all.
Tom: So I. You've gotta be sensible about the business as a business.
James: What, what do you say to your kids about idling? I mean, is this something you encourage or is it something back? You do your homework sort of thing?
Tom: Yeah. Well when they were on, I you, how do you approach that? I can
James: imagine it being little sensitive.
Tom: Yeah. I tried to hide them [00:34:00] magazine when they, when they were teenagers. But you did you But Dad, you say, you know, it is good to, well, strangely, but my eldest son is really not, not very ILE at all. I mean, he's sort of a tech bro. You know, he works for a tech company, right? And he works really hard and. He's always on his phone and he thinks in a sort of, he thinks in a sort of tech way.
Tom: Um, and he's very hardworking and he was. Actually worked quite hard when he was quite small. He used to run businesses and things. So he is an Entrepr entrepreneur. He's an entrepreneur. He's got a job at the moment, show horror, I mean, whatcha gonna
James: do, got his dynamo in the house.
Tom: But then he did see Victoria and I sort of slaving away, not slaving away, but you know, it was chosen, but.
Tom: Going to festivals, you know? Well, you grew up in a
James: home where you were, you know, entrepreneurial. I guess he was an
Tom: entrepreneur. You know, I'm not saying successful entrepreneurial, that, that's my joke. It's like I'm on James Ed Reed's podcast, he interviews entrepreneurs and they don't have to be successful ones.
James: Well, no, I mean, you're an entrepreneur if you're running your own sh show, and that's, no, I think
Tom: you're, I think if you're more or [00:35:00] less doing what you want to do and you're making a living, that is a success. Yeah. And I think that
James: thing about, you know, having your time as your own, I think is important to a lot of entrepreneurs.
Tom: I think that that is the, the great benefit. So, I mean, in one sense I'm working all the time because I'm always thinking about the magazine, ideas for the magazine. Um, little sentences in my head for bits of writing. Yeah, it's, it is, it's kind of 24 7. On the other hand, I can take Wednesday afternoon off and go and play tennis or go for a walk if I choose to.
Tom: So personally, I, I really enjoy that sort of freedom. I can quite work, do two or three hours work on a Sunday morning at home writing or something, you know, but then, yeah, reserve the right to sort of, you know, so I'd like, just like you
James: talked a bit about having this BookShot where she ran for a period of time and you found it tough.
James: Gimme some specifics for, for, so people who are listening who might be thinking of starting a business, what were the say three things that you felt, oh, I didn't realize that was coming towards me and I wish I'd known about it and I would've done it differently.
Tom: Yeah. Well staff, so [00:36:00] people, okay. Talking people tax and VAT.
Tom: Right. Tax and and accounting, that whole area.
James: Yeah. People finance, accounting, tax. Yeah. And
Tom: funding also, I would say actually, I mean I think we were quite good at coming up with the ideas, um. And making things happen, looking people for events, and the events were good. We were quite good at publicity. We had quite a lot, got a lot of publicity.
James: But what about the people side things? What did you find out about that? Well, people
Tom: side thing, I, I, it's, it's, you know, we should have come to you, James, on day one because, um, thank you for saying that. I've been very happy to help you. But yeah, I think we, treating people is, again, it's a skill in itself.
Tom: You know, it's very important. Get it right. We didn't know anything about it, you know, we were completely useless. We had no experience at all, really. I mean, I had worked with people at The Guardian, obviously, but I, I, I didn't have to interview people, employ people. And then work out and then manage them really, you know, and then work out all their tax and everything and their contracts.
Tom: And we had a lot of, you know, quite bad episodes with, with staff and I found that very difficult. And also because it was called the I Academy, you know, it [00:37:00] was difficult for me to kind of crack the wit when there, if they were late or lazy. I remember like, I remember overhearing some stuff saying, yeah, he's such a hypocrite.
Tom: You know, we have to work really hard here.
James: So they'd been mis-sold, do you think?
Tom: Yeah. Ed's got the wrong name. We should have called it the Hard Work Academy.
James: Yeah. Yeah. I can see that might be so, okay. So the people side of, so it's ing, I
Tom: think. Yeah. That's really doing well. There's a
James: statistic that really struck me that 80% of managers in Britain have had no formal training.
James: So I suppose if you're starting your own business, you've had no formal training, you've fallen into that category. Yeah, you do. And it makes it a lot harder.
Tom: It does, because you think, you don't realize it's a skill in itself. I think it's like being a carpenter. I mean, I, I can't build a table. I think I can manage a team of staff well, I couldn't, and I, you, you think because I'm just a human being.
Tom: Oh, I'll just be nice to them. There's more to it than that, isn't there? Well, as, as, as you, you know, as you well know. And, um, so that was a bit of a shock. And talk me about being, being a bad boss and being a bad manager.
James: Well, and so there's that. Then one, you said finance generally. What was the challenge there for [00:38:00] you?
Tom: We didn't keep books properly. And this led to all sorts of really stressful problems with being late with VAT tax issues, you know, and we got like a really, like a sort of five figure VAT bill that I hadn't been expecting. And we, we were pretty hand to mouth in, in the business. Uh, so we didn't have any.
Tom: So what did you
James: do when that came.
Tom: We, I, I dunno, we, because that dug into the overdraft, or, or, or we paid in installment. So the, the amazing thing is that actually, if you ring up the government, um, well, what I learned was the, the more you put your head in the sand, the worse it gets. Mm-hmm. Um, if you've got a problem, deal with it like instantly.
Tom: And people are actually really nice. They're human beings at the other end. They don't want you to destroy you. You know? And we found that once we faced up to it, it was okay that, you know, we'll, we'll put an installment plan in, you know, we'll, you can pay a certain amount per month, you know, so that's good
James: advice.
James: Pick up the phone, talk to someone, pick up the phone and talk to someone. You weren't expecting this or you. Need you to make a plan to pay it. You
Tom: admit you, you made a mistake. You know? And rather than sort of [00:39:00] probably what I did at the beginning, just get angry. You know, get angry at, well, okay Tom, don't get angry.
Tom: You, you know, everyone else pays VT in tax. You know, why do you think you are exempt from this should be exempt. Same with. Rent and rates and things like that, you know, so if you want to enter the system like this and start a business, well you, you have to accept that there are kind of laws around it and get a good
James: bookkeeper by the sound
Tom: of things.
Tom: And that was the other thing we, we did, our books were terrible, so that just caused a lot of chaos. We didn't, you know. We, we just about managed to keep up with everything. We had a good chartered accountant, so they were able to do our accounts each year, so that's fine. So we didn't miss the account deadline with company's house.
Tom: Um, but the everyday accounts were a complete everyday. Books were a complete mess. When we closed the shop and relaunched the business, the first thing we did was to employ a very, very good, you know, bookkeeper and financial manager. Before I was doing it, and, and this person now will chase up invoices, you know, send our invoices out [00:40:00] and helps me to produce budgets, management accounts, and all these sorts of things that we were taught later.
Tom: So I started to learn that stuff towards the end of our. Tenure at the bookshop. I should have learned that before. You know, we should have gone on some sort of proper business course or something.
James: Yeah. The good course is finance for non-financial managers and things like that. Yeah.
Tom: I think there are things like that out there that they should be.
Tom: We, we, we, I've actually put some on our website. Yeah,
James: no, that's really important. I can see that. And then you said funding was the third.
Tom: We didn't have enough money. So I mean, the whole thing was a bit sort of foolish really, because it wasn't really a very good business idea. Um.
James: My friend. We only knew that later.
Tom: We only knew that later, although I was warned on Be before it started by friend John Brown, who's, he's a publisher. He's a very successful publisher. He published Viz. Yeah, he made that absolute millions and, you know, um, lives in Holland Park and all the rest of it. But he's great. He's, he's a, a great support and advice.
Tom: He, he popped round. Um, because before we'd opened the shop, it was too late to do anything. We'd already taken out a five year lease. All right. And he said, [00:41:00] well, what is it then? Well, it's the of Academy of Philosophy. Husbandry and Merriment. Bookseller and Coffee House. Bit of a long title. Okay, fine. But, and what are you gonna do?
Tom: Well, we, I sort of stuttered, you know, we're gonna have, it's during the day, it's a bookshop and a cafe and, you know, a sort of hangout place. And in the evening we'll have. Talks, events, dancing, I don't know. You know, Latin lessons, grammar. And he said, I see midlife crisis center marginal at best.
James: So, but you did do all of those things.
James: We did do all those things
Tom: and so there's actually proud of, we had a go. That's important. Yeah. Thing, isn't it? Had it go. And on the plus side, I think you, you learn
James: some things along the way. You learn some
Tom: things along the way, and you actually, you do get some, you do get some respect for having a go, but the problem is respect.
Tom: Don't pay the rent.
James: No. So you moved on from bookshop and you now run an academy that's digital.
Tom: Yeah. This time we, we raised some money 'cause we were saying that, you know, we didn't really, we never had quite enough money in the [00:42:00] accounts. We were always, it was always, always just a bit behind everything.
Tom: And that's just really stressful, you know? Mm-hmm. And then we weren't paying ourselves. We paid ourselves less and less. By the end, we were paying ourselves. Nothing. So I was having to live off bits of journalism.
James: Mm. Or
Tom: I just borrow a 10 quid out of the till, you know, uh, to each, so this is
James: tough. Yeah, it was really
Tom: tough.
Tom: Yeah. And we, we, we did other things like we, we bred puppies. I mean, we, we, we did all sorts of desperate things to try and make some money. Um, and, but with the new iteration. I really dipped my toes sort of deeper into capitalism, if you like. Went to a company called Crowdcube, which a lot of your listeners will be aware of.
Tom: And this actually worked quite well for us. I mean, I have some reservations about it, but it's a crowdfunding business. Uh, well, people
James: can invest in other businesses,
Tom: they invest. So it's not, it's not, it's not Kickstarter. So you're not selling stuff in advance, but you're actually selling shares. You have a lot of shareholders now, I guess.
Tom: Yeah. So now we've got 150 shareholders. Right. We sold a percentage of the company 11 to 12%, and [00:43:00] we raised 150 grand. It was great. So that, that was, that meant that we could, you know, quite comfortably hire an assistant, rent an office, and also have, have some money in the bank for marketing. That's one thing we did.
Tom: And then the second thing was we got advice from, I think the, the other advice thing I've learned is if whatever it is you want to do, find someone who's done the same thing, but successfully and get advice from them because. A lot of, you get a lot of advice. Uh, you are probably too successful, James to experience this, but I find that when you're doing a small business, lots of friends, well-meaning friends, advise you.
Tom: But as Luke Johnson would say, have they run a small business? Have they done something like you? If the answer's no, then. There's not much point listening to their advice really. Uh, but we went to another magazine called The Oldie, who we're good friends with very similar sort of business, and they've advised us really well on how to run a small magazine that alter does some other things.
Tom: So the
James: oldie. Advises the Id like an older sibling. It is, it really [00:44:00] is. I, I like that. Yeah. It's like I, Aldi kaldi's have been helpful. That's good. Yeah.
Tom: They helping out the idler. So looking for, looking for,
James: for sort of fellow travelers who you can share. Yeah. Like a
Tom: mentor, you know, someone who's done something very similar and knows what you're going through.
Tom: So James, at the oldie. The publisher, you know, they also run holidays. They sell subscriptions for a magazine, they sell advertising. It's just a very, very similar sort. You're not
James: competing.
Tom: We're not competing at all. It's just we, we've both got slight, quite quirky titles. Yeah. Um, and, and so that's been really good to learn from them.
James: Right, right. So the business is on a new basis now, then it's, you've been financed, you are doing digital, you've got your academy going, and you're doing these trips as well. Yeah. So wait, so if someone wants to subscribe or come on one of your trips, te tell us about one of these trips so that people know what's on offer here, and then tell us how they can find them.
Tom: Well, thanks James. Yeah, we, we, we, we call them I of retreats. And in the modern lingo, I suppose you would call them experiences. We started doing [00:45:00] 'em actually when Victoria and I were living in a farmhouse in North Devon, short weekends for people to come and sort of experience a bit of country life, you know, a vegetable growing beekeeping, these things that we were doing then, and the retreats.
Tom: But then a few years ago we found a really wonderful villa initially called Villa Pier. Uh, and we, we, we've now done a lot of retreats with them and we take a group of sort of 20 to 30 idler readers for a week. There'll be some sort of a theme. We'll go and visit churches. P la Francesca, Renaissance, art Sienna, ato.
Tom: The last one was a pilgrimage theme, so. It was all about St. Francis and we, we retraced his steps on, on three separate, short, short, three separate days on short walks or medium walks seven miles and ended up in a cc on the last one. And then I'll be giving talks about, you know, idling or philosophy. We took a group to Spain to, to Andrew, Lucia recently.
Tom: And you know, it is a mix of philosophical thinking. Good chat, good fun. Evenings, singalongs. We all eat together. [00:46:00] So there's a sort of feasting element. So the, so merry making is a part of it, but it's also very educational. I think people really enjoy learning,
James: you know? Right. Um, so you have singer alongs.
James: We
Tom: always have a singing
James: along at the end. Okay. So, so, so if, if someone wants to go on one of these retreats, where do they go? How do they find you?
Tom: They go to idler.co.uk idler.co do uk. And the thing, the thing people love about them as well is that, you know, it, you just meet so many interesting people.
James: Well, I, I, I know you do beekeeping courses. They're very good. 'cause my wife Nicola is um, they are brilliant experiences. Yeah, brilliant experiences. But they are, and, and so many people have learned beekeeping. They're good, aren't they? Yeah. Good. It's a good thing. Yeah. Well, congratulations on I, I guess pivoting and reinventing your, your business.
James: Are there any other lessons you wanna share to entrepreneurs or would be entrepreneurs from your journey so far?
Tom: Well, I think there, there's, there's the flip side to idling going, going back to why CEOs should be more idle, which is efficiency. So it's all about not wasting your time. And I think an efficient ethic is better than a [00:47:00] sort of work ethic.
Tom: So, you know, long hours don't necessarily produce. Better results or, you know, sort of more productivity they might do in, in some industries, but you know, in general, they're not necessarily linked. So I think because of arts of efficiency need to be studied and perhaps the, the person who sort of, you know, leaves on time should be more respected than the person who kind of lingers.
Tom: For two or three hours after whatever the home time is, um, just to be seen, to be sort of working harder or something like that, you know? Um, so I think that that's one of the lessons is efficiency is the kind of another way of saying, you know, I, I don't work too hard. I, I guess, you know, I, I, I work efficiently and I enjoy it, but I'm not gonna still kill myself.
Tom: Um, and I think that's an important lesson for anybody. And also to find, as I said at the beginning, to find these little bits of time during the day. When you just let your mind wander and drift and, um, turn the phone off. Put the phone away. Sit, sit on a park bench. As we talked about at the beginning, [00:48:00] there's, you know, idling is free.
Tom: So one of the main questions we get and have always had is, um, oh yeah, you probably need to be rich to be a eidler. Oh, well it's all right for you, sort of posh people. We have a festival in Hamstead and we do ukulele teaching. And someone once got angry and sent me an email saying, um, you know, it's all right for you and your, you and your posh mates playing the ukulele hamster.
Tom: Well, that was very funny. Well, what's your answer to that? Because I mean, there is a bit of that.
James: One you must get, you know that?
Tom: Yeah. It seems a bit silly. Well, the answer to that is no. Is it a lifestyle? It is like, oh, well, you know, like you are pun in Cambridge,
James: you know, you are saying you are sort of financing this from your endeavors.
Tom: Yeah, and I'm saying it, you know, we don't have any private income or anything like that. You, it is all self financed. It's for buying and selling, you know, some selling things, making things and selling them. Like the Beatles. Yeah. So, but yeah, the idea of the idle rich, no, you know, it is idling is free.
Tom: Anyone can be idle. Is is, you know, [00:49:00] it is the question of, um, taking control of your time and sort of, you know, being a bit, kind of thinking smart as they say in America about your time. Organizing it carefully. And also I think actually scheduling idle idling nowadays.
James: Alright, so, so I asked you right at the beginning is idle.
James: Idling the same as being lazy. So, and, and you, you said it was not, and I suppose sort of to, to summarize what I've heard, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the sort of upsides of idling. If, if you are an entrepreneur or someone who's probably quite driven, one, the it, you might make yourself more efficient by managing your time more carefully and in a more focused way, you might have better ideas because ideas come.
James: Often in this sort of less likely situations where it might be idling. And I suppose I'm sort of underlying all this, you, you might have better relationships as well because you have time for other people. And is that a [00:50:00] fair summary of the I think that's right. I think, can we reconcile our positions here because Yeah,
Tom: we can, because you could do your job better if you have a bit more whiling.
Tom: I mean there, there was, uh, one example was, um, is doctors, you know, I've met quite a few doctors who've gone down to a four day week. Well, they feel they can give a better service to their patients. Because they're enjoying it. They're not exhausted, you know, as long as
James: you don't get sick on one of their days off.
Tom: That's what I worry
James: about.
Tom: That's, that's, that's, that's fallible logic, James, because there's a, there's a bunch of them. You share the work, you know, so yeah, you don't all take the same day off. That's what, um, someone objected to the, I think it was Jacob Reese MOG objected to the four day week in Cambridge council.
Tom: He said, well, what happens if, you know, there's a pothole, leaves a Friday? It doesn't work like that. You know, like not everyone, all the, the entire department doesn't all take Friday off. You know? Are you sure about that?
James: Some people might wonder, I mean, Fridays have become a bit of a fall guy for some of this stuff.
James: I. The productivity takes a hit back. Yeah. So if this is sacrilegious love Fridays. [00:51:00] So, uh, no, I think you should love every day, but it's love every day. That's exactly right. So you, you, a fan of the four day week.
Tom: I mean, I don't do it personally because it is just all sort of spread out, but I, I am, you know, anything that's moving forward to giving people more leisure.
Tom: Yes, I'm a fan of it, so, but I don't think it should be imposed on people. So
James: ai, you should love that. I mean, that's gonna give people a lot more leisure, isn't it? I
Tom: dunno whether it will we just. Like I said, it tend not to happen with labor saving devices. You think they're gonna give people more leisure and they somehow don't, they just sort of windmills
James: were meant to give people more leisure windmills.
James: People were
Tom: scared of windmills at the time. They, they thought they were a bit like, we're scared of ai, but they were scared of windmills. They thought they were sort of like ungodly creatures, ungodly machines, harvesting, you know, the air.
James: Yeah. Well, they were a new innovation, weren't they? All right, so, well, thank you for coming to talk to me.
James: Thank you. Yeah. And thank you for your words of wisdom. I mean, it's, it's good to. Here's some philosophy on the podcast and go back to the stoicism and, and one, one other thing I, I remember you telling me on another occasion the [00:52:00] origins of the word scholar. I. School. Yeah. But just share that at the end of this podcast.
James: I think that's really interesting. Yeah.
Tom: I found this out quite recently. Um, we were talking about the ancient Greek philosophers, and they want, they, they, they argued that everyone should make, you know, give themselves more leisure time to do more philosophizing, you know, to take care of their soul, take care of their body, take care of their friendships, that take care of their life, not just work.
Tom: Um, and their word for that was ska leisure. So ska. The Greek ancient Greek word for leisure. It's when you did what you wanted, when you were released to do what you wanted to do, not things that you sort of had to, or are forced to for, for whatever reason. So it meant kind of freedom, but it turned into the word Latin word for school.
Tom: Scholars because school was what, again? The beginning of school, it was something kind of fun, you know, that you did because you wanted to, uh, go and school yourself. So that's kind of what idling was about in our I Idling Academy. Like in your spare time, make more leisure [00:53:00] time to, to educate yourself, to, uh, to enjoy your life more.
Tom: So that's an amazing idea that this word, you know, which now to us the word school sounds like something that's actually imposed on you that you sort of don't like. Um, originally was a, a word meaning. The kind of stuff that you would do for fun in your leisure time.
James: So back to school for learning in leisure, back to scholarly.
James: Yeah, scholarly. I, I like that thought. Thanks so much for coming to talk to me, Tom. It's been a real pleasure. I'm gonna ask you two questions at the end that I ask all my guests. The first one is, you know the clues on the wall. You know, what is it that gets you up on a Monday morning?
Tom: Well, I think, I think idling, as we said, it doesn't mean not working.
Tom: It means enjoying the work you are doing. Um, and I actually look forward to You are right. You know, if you can go, the sign of a happy life must be something like, do you go to bed on a Sunday evening? I. Looking forward to getting up the next day. You know, I've had lots of, uh, periods when I, I really didn't that really, you know, and, and, and so, [00:54:00] and if that's happening, then I think that's the sign you need to change your life.
Tom: And that might be in getting another job, finding a different position, changing your arrangement in some way or other, but you need to, to make that effort to do it. And for me personally. I look forward to Monday mornings because that's in general, that's my sort of writing time, so that's the time when I can sit down at home and read my stoic philosophers or whatever it is, and, and write articles, continue work on my next book.
Tom: My, my next book is about Socrates, so I. I, I, I enjoy that. And I think that's almost, it almost feels like a skive, um, because that's the morning I give off my idler stuff.
James: So when's your stoic book coming out?
Tom: That's coming out in February, 2026. And what's it gonna be called? Do you know? It's called How to Live Like A Stoic.
James: Okay. By Tom Hodgkinson. We'll look out for that. So, um, that's your Monday morning that's covered. Socrates next. So you're pretty busy on Mondays. Yeah. But I completely agree with what you say. If you're not looking forward to Monday, then it's time to make a change. Absolutely. We're here to help, but so are you with your [00:55:00] philosophy?
James: Yeah. And then the last question is, where do you see yourself in five years time?
Tom: Well, um, I think I've mentioned, uh, although, you know, I think idols can be quite ambitious. So, um, of often people who are. Entrepreneurs are people who might have been quite lazy when they're at school or quite lazy when they had a sort of more conventional job.
Tom: Um, because they have, it's a kind of, so laziness can be a sort of a sign of the free spirit, I think, um, sort of rebelling against, um, an authority or being told what to do. And an alternative to that is to become an entrepreneur. And I think that's quite common with entrepreneurs there. There's something maybe slightly wrong with them often.
Tom: Um, they don't quite sort of fit in. I mean, you know, Richard Branson is famously dyslexic. Um, and he's just got a slightly different way of looking at looking at things. Um.
Tom: What was the question?
James: Where do you see yourself in five years time? Oh, we again? Yeah, [00:56:00] sorry. That's good. Carry on. I'm enjoying the, you're enjoying the ramble. Okay. So when do I see myself?
Tom: That's my main, one of my big problems. Talk too much. Just, but you can't see yourself in five years time. In five years time, I see myself keeping my mouth shut a lot more often.
Tom: Um. No, I think, um, doing the same thing but with more readers, you know, we we're quite, we're quite ambitious for the idler. Um, we'd like to be doing more trips, uh, spreading the word more widely, more subscriptions like a band. A band wants more fans, you know, are on
James: idling.
Tom: Yeah. So I'm really happy to, with the everyday work I'm doing, I don't feel like I wanna retire or anything.
Tom: I probably never retired because it's really quite fun and journalists. Generally say, well, journalism, it's not really work. It's sort of fun, you know? So for me it's, it's all fun, you know? So hopefully just carry on. Hopefully we'll be able, we'll survive one that's, you know, we, that's an achievement, but also grow the business so that we have, you know, we have 5,000 subscribers.
Tom: The circulation data on [00:57:00] 9,000. Yeah, we'd like to be on 10,000 subscribers in a circulation of 20,000. You know, uh, the older you have a circulation of about 40,000 that's, you know, quite a successful magazine to sort of keep spreading the idol word.
James: Good. Well, I wish you every success with that and, and I hope praise from John Brown in the future.
James: It sounds like a tough mentor. Thank you, Tom. Very good talking to you. Thank you. Thanks, Tom. Thank you, Tom, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed. Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed Tom and the idler, all links are in the show notes.
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