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In this episode of all about business, James interviews Kiki McDonagh, a fifth-generation jeweller renowned for her work with high-profile clients including Princess Diana and the current Princess of Wales. They discuss how she transformed the perception of fine jewellery, making it more accessible and encouraging women to buy for themselves. She shares insights into her design inspiration, the evolution of her brand, and the importance of business strategies such as starting small, maintaining strict financial oversight, and building customer trust.
Celebrating 40 years in the industry, Kiki outlines her future plans, including expansion into the American market.
03:26 designing with passion and innovation
05:21 building a brand and customer relationships
14:32 navigating the luxury market
20:26 the impact of social media and online sales
26:36 advice for aspiring jewellers
31:53 building trust and brand identity
38:37 challenges and opportunities in the jewellery industry
49:18 expanding into the American market
53:03 looking forward: future plans and reflections
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
Visit Kiki McDonough: https://www.kiki.co.uk/?srsltid=AfmBOoqkPmef9Z7rSs8hTfYTcLKVMxGR1T7KvTFJ7hYmjz-az_VJseV8
Visit Kiki McDonagh on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kikimcdonough/?hl=en
James: [00:00:00] Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business management and leadership. Every episode I sit down with different guests of bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture.
What does it take to turn a family craft into a business that's loved by the UK's most prestigious family, and how do you keep that business going in the wake of social and economic change? Today's guest, Kiki McDonough, is a fifth generation jeweler and has designed exquisite pieces for high-end customers.
Including Princess Diana, queen Camilla, and Catherine Princess of Wales. She bootstrapped her business with no help from [00:01:00] investors, allowing her to keep control of her company and her vision for four decades. In this episode, we discuss Kiki's strategy for building a luxury brand. The key to attracting high-end customers and how she's managed to remain relevant while also staying true to her style.
Kiki, you started your own business 40 years ago in 1985. Uh, in jewelry. How did it begin?
Kiki: Well, rather extraordinarily in a very weird way, because I was a secretary for years, you know, emptying bins and making coffee for people and doing travel arrangements for people, and then I'd get bored after a year and move on to the next one.
I mean, my CV was a. Long as the Bible. It really was. And then a friend of mine rang me up one day and said, who had an antique jewelry store in Bond Street and said, would you like to come and design some modern jewelry? 'cause I'd like to sell modern jewelry. And I mean, I was astounded. I can't think of any other word really.
And I said, well, no, I don't think, I think [00:02:00] you've got the wrong person. You know, wrong number. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I agreed to do it after a couple of months of persuading and we set up Kiki McDonough Limited, and I arrived on my first day with a blank piece of paper and a pencil actually rather embarrassed sitting there and looking at this paper piece of paper and thought, oh Lord, what am I going to do this?
It's just embarrassing. And then I spotted in his counter, a round crystal broach with a daron set bow in the middle. And pearls around the outside. And I thought, well, if I cut a crystal into a heart shape and put a bow on top and make them as earrings and pendants and some Damons and a few sprinkling of Damons or whatever, and let's see what happens.
So I asked this manufacturer from Birmingham to come down called David Deacon, and he arrived and looked at my ideas and. I have to say that he smiled but knocked with any humor in his, I think he was just being polite and he said, I'm really not sure. And I said, I dunno what made me say [00:03:00] it, but I said, you know what, I'm not sure either.
And we both burst out laughing and he and I designed joy for the next 20 years. Those earrings are now in the V and a Modern jury collection. Absolutely extraordinary.
James: So you had this idea of cutting a crystal into half
Kiki: in a heart. In a heart into heart shape. Yes, that's right heart. And it was the eighties, remember 1985 when everyone was hearts and bows and big shoulder pats.
Right.
James: But that's quite bold, isn't it?
Kiki: Yes. I dunno quite where that came from. It just, I thought, well, I'll just do this heart and this bow on top and, but my great love are the colored gemstones. I love all the peros and citrines and, and so after those, I mean the first pair I sold. Nine and 50 pounds. And I, when the person bought them, came to the store and bought them, I was apologetic.
I mean, I was absolutely no good at all. I was so apologetic. I said, are you sure? Are you really sure? 'cause they are 950 pounds. And she said, honestly, she said, you're not a very good sales. And anyway, she's uh, and funnily enough, amazingly she hurt. She lives in [00:04:00] America actually. And she heard that it was my 40th anniversary, probably from reading newsletters or something.
And she still wears them.
James: Well, that's fantastic. So you are still in touch with your first customer 40 years? Yes. Still in touch?
Kiki: Yes, absolutely.
James: Well, that says a lot. It's
Kiki: rather nice.
James: You said that you started your business, you called it Kiki McDonough. Mm-hmm. From, but then you were almost trading out of this antique jewelry shop.
Yeah, so I had, so there was a concession or something? Was it? Yes, it was four shelves.
Kiki: I had four shelves and, okay. Milli. I was trying to fill a gap really in the market between sort of 95 pounds and 950 pounds, which is quite a lot back then. And a lot of my girlfriends, you know, if you had a fake this, you wanted the real thing, but they were never going to go to Bond, you know, proper bond street shops 'cause they were way too expensive.
So I thought, oh well if I'm going to do it, let's fill that gap. And so that's what I did and it seemed that there was a market for it.
James: So how did you get the money to buy the. Diamonds and the, the jewels, because they're not cheap. Are they mean he first did
Kiki: so it's funny really, 'cause my [00:05:00] father was a jeweler and I think I'm fourth, I think maybe fifth generation jeweler in my family.
But when my Oh, so you
James: have a history in the family? Yes.
Kiki: I, I got a history of it. Right. And not that I knew until, you know, I was asked to do this and my father had. An antique jewelry shop in Bond Street. Oh. And he retired quite early and I was wearing Bieber boots and Bieber hats and everything. Right. I wasn't gonna take it over.
Right.
James: Um,
Kiki: so I think that's, so you didn't know you
James: had a history of jewelry?
Kiki: I knew I had a history of it in the family, but I certainly didn't know that it was within me at all.
James: But it was,
Kiki: and it was, it appears that it was. That's interesting.
James: But did you learn from him? I mean, was he sort of talking about home?
I mean, is this something you would've picked up almost? He was very.
Kiki: He was very easy around jewelry, which I think probably bounced onto me. I mean, he used to come back at the weekend sometimes, and I remember him coming back once with this and he's wearing his jacket, his tweed jacket for the weekend, and he took his out of his pocket, this broach, and he slid it down the dining room table like a cowboy [00:06:00] does with a, you know, a glass of lager.
And say, Kiki, what do you think of this? And so I'd pick it up and I'd pretend, you know, I'd put it on my, put it up here or broach or earrings, hold 'em up to my ear and said, oh, this, it's really special. And give it back to him. And that was all really, I really appreciated what he did, but I certainly didn't think it was going to be my career and a million, well, I mean, I think then the jewelry business, there weren't any women in it.
James: There weren't any women. That's interesting. So when you started, you were quite unusual? Yes. You were
Kiki: all men. In my father's story, because there are a lot now,
James: aren't there?
Kiki: Oh, a lot. None. Which seems logical because quite, yeah, women are the ones who wear the jewelry, and it was certainly in 1985, it was people to buy, men choosing jewelry for women to wear, which.
I always found rather odd, but you know, on we go, on, we go as you
James: say. So we changed or you changed that by the way you went about it. It sounds,
Kiki: I think I, I certainly changed the perception of fine joy if women about themselves. By themselves in this country. And I [00:07:00] also, because I used the gemstones like Amethyst Dreams and Perose, and then just did a sprinkling of almonds.
I think certainly I introduced color and how easy it is to wear. I mean, in the beginning we would say, oh, I never wear green. And I go, well, no, everyone can wear green. You know? Right. There are very few colors that women, that everybody can't, can't wear. So you gave people the
James: confidence to wear green for Yes.
They said,
Kiki: oh, borrow them for 24 hours and then they'd come back and say, oh yeah, they, they're great. I dunno. Is that what you did? You let people walk out with Well, occasionally you know, you, it's just, that's very good. You know, if you are so. Yeah, I think it was meant, but a lot of trust involved
James: it both ways.
By the sound of things.
Kiki: Yes, it was meant, and jewelry is very special, but it is also fun and it is there to make you feel a little bit better than before you put it on.
James: Yes. Yeah, I, I would agree with that. I mean, so Kiki, I, I'd be interested if you could describe, if that's possible, your style of jewelry or your approach, because.
I can see you are wearing some remarkable earrings, [00:08:00] but people listening can't. What's your approach or, so
Kiki: for me, it's about my life and my lifestyle and I go, I do what most people have done. When my children were younger, I used to took 'em to school or watch 'em play football. I've go to work, I go to the odd party or supper with friends, and I really.
Wanted jewelry that you could wear that was accessible. Obviously some of the jewelry do you probably would only wear in the evenings, but jewelry should be worn, I think not kept in a safe and dusted off every two months. It's there to be worn and enjoyed.
James: So it's for every day?
Kiki: Yes. I mean, some of it's for every day.
There is obviously some section. We do all the special editions, which probably people would wear more in the evening, but otherwise, yeah, it's just get, my view is just get on and wear it.
James: Right.
Kiki: Just get on and wear it. Don't worry about it. Just get on and wear it.
James: And you wear it the football matches, is that right?
Kiki: I'm a, [00:09:00] you mentioned that earlier. I'm a Liverpool. I'm a Liverpool supporter, so. Yes, but you had to wear
James: red jewelry for those occasion talking so makes event. So
Kiki: Ben to Anfield, obviously with my jewelry, uh, wearing my jewelry, but I did go to the Liverpool and Chester City semi-final of the FA cup about four years ago.
I can't even remember what it was actually. And there was a woman, five roads down for me, wearing my jewelry and I thought, you know, I've really made it
James: right. Did you say hello to her?
Kiki: I didn't, I didn't. Wouldn't know. I wouldn't ever do that. Oh, you wouldn't do that? You wouldn't do that? No, but I'd wait for her.
I mean, she wouldn't know. She didn't know who I was. She'd obviously go into the store, you know? No, I wouldn't ever approach someone who was wearing my jewelry and gave, was wearing light blue or red. She wearing, she was wearing a red, I think she was wearing a red. Jumper, red card, I suppose you've probably, but the guy next to me was hilarious.
He was wearing a sort of vest with lots of sort of gold chains and said, so lots of jewelry. Lots of jewelry, you know, big gold Rolex, and lots of chains around his neck. [00:10:00] And when they first scored gold, I'll never forget. And I looked at him and I thought, oh, what's he gonna think? Because he, and he put his hand up and I did.
He said, high five Granny.
James: It's like, granny, that's nice. We both,
Kiki: I thought enough of that young man, enough of that young man said he goes that right now. And he was, anyway. We, we had, so a minute after, after that Five, five
James: Granny is an interesting opener.
Kiki: I, I thought it was so funny. It made my day. So definitely jewelry
James: for all occasions.
Yeah. That's really good. We are delighted that you are listening to this episode. Hit the follow button so that we can continue to bring you the best business insight and actionable advice to help your business and or career. One of the things that you mentioned, you were one of the first women to make and design jewelry.
How did that make you approach it differently, do you think?
Kiki: You know, I think because I didn't really know what I was doing back then, I don't think I had an approach. I just thought, oh, well those are, those are really nice and I [00:11:00] love those perose stones. Let's make some pero earrings like this, or let's do this like this.
I, I, I don't think for the first three years, I, I genuinely thought that for two or three years, people might buy the few things that I've done, and then that would be the end. I'd probably go back to being a secretary. I, I didn't have any. Any ambition to, or any confidence, I think actually to think that this would turn into a worldwide brand, I really didn't.
Um, and I did a
James: So how did that happen? So you turned this into a worldwide brand. Yes. You didn't have confidence that you would do that at the beginning, but it happened. But it, so you've done so much, right. For that happen. I know. I'm making
Kiki: it, I'm making it sound a little bit flippant, but it involved a huge amount of hard work.
Hard work is one, and my father said. The only thing he said to me when I started this business was, look after the pennies and the pounds and look after themselves. And I thought, well, that's really good advice. And I have, I've kept very strict eye on the finances from day one, and I think that has helped.
I [00:12:00] think the fact that people do like the jewelry obviously is, uh, when you say,
James: I'm interested in this. 'cause I, I, I feel the same way. When you say keeping a strict eye on the finance. What do you actually do? How, how does that manifest itself? Well, I think
Kiki: for 40 years, envy every invoice has had to go past me and being just had to be justified.
Um, so you
James: sign every single bill? Yeah,
Kiki: I approve them all. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I do it now to this day. And, you know, the comp, the company hasn't needed the bank or shareholders or directors or anybody. I've done it all on my own, which in a way is sort of exhausting, but in another way, it's kept the company.
On a straight line. Um, and it's successful.
James: So you so you run a tight ship. Exactly. I think that's
Kiki: the expression. I run a tight ship, you know? Yeah.
James: So you, you've developed a, a worldwide brand. Find your, I mean, some people call it a, a luxury brand or you're in the luxury space. Yes. And I'm interested in what this word luxury [00:13:00] means.
'cause there are a lot of businesses that do really well in the luxury space. What, what makes something luxury and what does luxury mean to you? Who's luxury? I think
Kiki: luxury is a strange word. I, I, I didn't really understand what it means. 'cause it's, everybody has a different idea of luxury. You know, if you haven't got very much money, then your idea of luxury is gonna be different to somebody who has got a bit more money or who's had a bonus or who's, it's, it's, it's so different.
Uh, everybody thinks about a different way. I mean, I think you would say that Darwin's a luxury. But then there are lots of people who save up to buy a almond ring and things, and, and it may not cost a huge amount of money. So I think luxury is about perception and I think it's very difficult to say luxury is the following five things.
Um, you know, to me a luxury would be a a, a soft top Bentley or a, you know, or a, or an Aston Martin or something, which is completely unattainable for me. But then someone else would think that some [00:14:00] part, maybe some of my jury is unattainable for them. And so I think it's, I think it's a very strange word, and I think it, uh, in a way do I like it?
Probably not.
James: You don't like it? So the, there's something about it that's sort of just out of reach. Is that the Yes. And it,
Kiki: yes. I think that probably is right, but yet there's a lot of luxury that is in reach. As I say, depending on perception,
James: but we maybe aspire for things that are just salary.
Kiki: Yeah.
James: Yes.
I want that. Badly or light, those earrings or I, it's, I think it's
Kiki: aspirational. I think, you know, I've got women who would, you know, who can form my jewelry and then somebody else saves up for a particular pair earrings they want, and so. Yeah, IDII wonder if it's become a rather overused word, but maybe not.
James: Yeah. Maybe. But you, you obviously know your customers. Mm-hmm. I mean, you, you, you know them personally. You know what they like, and they come back and you, you've built a longstanding relationship with [00:15:00] lots of them, it sounds like. Yes. Is that right? So is that how you approach business? Yes.
Kiki: Certainly. For the first 20 years, I, I was.
You know, milling around on the shop floor for at least three hours a day. Now the company has got bigger and so I'm, but I am still in the basement of my store overseeing what the clients are buying with my creative assistant. And, you know, thinking of the next, the, the next collection and what we do, and, you know, is it wearable?
Wearable? I've got a drawer full of designs I've never used 'cause I. Thought to myself, oh, I'm just not sure where's anyone going to wear that? Where, you know, how are they gonna relate to that? And, and if I'm not a hundred percent certain, it goes straight in the drawer.
James: Right? Um,
Kiki: I'm
James: quite So you're always experimenting, don't you?
Yes. You don't necessarily proceed to production.
Kiki: I think my jewelry people say, you know, has it changed? And that to me means do you follow fashion? Which I don't, I think it's evolved. It's evolved in the same style [00:16:00] as my style and what I like. I, I don't pay a huge attention to fashion. I mean, you know, if everybody says, oh gosh, well purple coats are in, we must, must do lots of amethyst.
I go, well, no, not really. You know, we will, let's do some like we always do. Yes, but I, I'm not going to change. I don't like changing. The way my jewelry has evolved according to fashion
James: is a, is a one. It's the transient, is the one line or product that's particularly popular or successful? Well, I detach, staple, attach
Kiki: detachable earrings, which I did, right?
Oh goodness. That's 20, 21 years ago. And I made a little, little diamond hoop with a drop and you can detach it. And I did it actually in five different gemstones, the drops, and they just took off. Because you can wear the, particularly, a lot, a lot of working women or mothers, you know, can wear the, uh, hoops on their own.
Yes. And then you can have the drops in your handbag if you're going to work and put the drops on in the evening if you're going straight out for a [00:17:00] drink. I'm very clever. So it's, you know, it's, it is, it's a, a movable feast and they, they've, they proved so popular that we now do. Oh my goodness. 37 different types of drops with seven different types of hoops, you know?
Right. It's evolved. Right.
James: So, so, but in 40 years in business there's been a lot of evolution, I'm imagining.
Kiki: Yes. There's been a lot of evolution in the color gemstones. Certainly. You know, when I first started, people say, oh, amethyst, oh, CI drink per Joes. Green, you know, and all that went on and, and it took me a long time to persuade the British public that actually colored gem stones were beautiful, absolutely beautiful.
And, you know, put them on and they light up your face and. Yes. It's just we all wear, I mean, women, so many women in winter wear black and black polex, black trousers or navy blue and, and it's so nice to have some color on your ears, which is nearest to your face
James: and that lights up your face.
Kiki: I think it does.
I think so. When,
James: [00:18:00] when someone walks in a room wearing your jewelry.
Kiki: Yeah,
James: that's, that's what you are hoping.
Kiki: So what basically gets me outta bed in the morning is. The fact that I might see someone walking down the street in my, in my earrings, or I'm going to, I'm going to see football and somebody's wearing my jewelry, or I go to the, the theater.
I might go to theater or cinema and someone is wearing my jewelry and I think I have a great thing was I did that. You know? Yeah.
James: You get real satisfaction. Yeah. I get
Kiki: real satisfaction from that. I just love seeing it worn.
James: So in the time you've been in business, Kiki, I mean, we've had the explosion of the internet.
Yeah's huge sort of online sales. It's huge. Huge. So you, you were obviously selling in, in from a shop and now you've got an online Yeah. Website. What's your, what's your website address so people know they come?
Kiki: Um, so it's www now.kiki.co uk.
James: Yeah. So that's your, so what proportion of your sales are now online as opposed to, uh,
Kiki: about 30.[00:19:00]
Two to 3%. We do, yes, we do a lot of wholesale, right in map, new urban Goldsmiths around the country, Fort New Masons, Londons of Belfast, we're on Farfetch and you know, there, so there is quite a big wholesale side to the business now, but the internet changed.
James: So would they, would they sell through their websites as well?
Yes. I see. So you are being sold through multiple, multiple websites.
Kiki: Yeah.
James: So how did that, how did that change the relationship with the, I mean, buying jewelry online is, well, it, it, a lot of trust involved.
Kiki: A lot of trust. But the pandemic was the thing that brought internet shopping. Forward five years I think.
Because if you were at home in the, certainly, you know, I think we had a three month lockdown or four month and then there was another five. If you wanted to buy your wife or partner or yourself, something like both you only, you could only go to a supermarket or a chemist. Yeah. Which wasn't really very gripping was it?
So I think he really, um, people had no alternative. And I think we were particularly lucky 'cause people were doing a lot of zoom [00:20:00] calls and that's of course waste outputs. So, you know, they could say, look at my new earrings and Oh, I see. That's good thought. So I think that the pandemic changed every, every internet shopping forever.
But I think particularly men who were, who were skeptical about buying fine jewelry online, and I completely see why, and I think that change everything because they had to, if they wanted to buy their partner, girlfriend or whatever, a pair of earrings or something, or some jewelry, they had to go online.
You didn't have a choice.
James: Yes.
Kiki: You couldn't go to a shop.
James: So you, you have customers, you have Princess Diana, I think Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson. Mm-hmm. Um, and currently the current Princess of Wales. Yeah. Who, who, you know, obviously like your products, has that. How did that come about and has that helped your brand?
Kiki: I, what's the think, um, relationship
James: there?
Kiki: So, certainly when Sarah Ferguson, Princeton wore the war, the wore the jury. There was no internet and there was nothing. The only way you heard about the juries, if you saw it in the press [00:21:00] or someone told you about it, and I think so that was quite hard. So do people
James: know they were wearing your jewelry at that time or?
Kiki: Well, they did because the press, the press knew what I was doing. Certainly after about three years of being in business, they, or two years, two or three years of me being in business, they knew what I was trying to do because I'd got them in and seen and all the rest of it. And so, yeah. And. They, so they were very good to me, actually.
Very good to me. And they used to do, um, you know, show the jewelry on the, so would they come into your shop and
James: buy things? Is that what happened or how did that go?
Kiki: So, gosh, it's such a long time ago. I can hardly remember actually. But, um, did it begin interest because it was obviously
James: good for your brand?
Well,
Kiki: I think that the thing about it was that they knew what, they also knew what I was trying to do. Certainly the Dutch of York all years ago. My husband knew her. My ex-husband knew her. David McDon and. He, I think, had told her about it, right? I think she must have said, how's Kiki or something? And he told her about it and she said, oh, that's really great that she's doing that.
So I think she [00:22:00] had, she had some, so she had some earrings in the early days and necklaces and things. And then, uh, the Princess of Wales, I, again, I think it was word of probably word of mouth. Yeah. And then. The present Princess of Wales, I think her mother, her mother spotted the jewelry and thought it would be it's perfect jewelry for her.
'cause she could wear a pair of earrings and then still go out in the evening in them if she's, or you know, it's, she's a working mother and so you know, it. It's perfect. It's perfect. Or it's not bling and it's not cutting edge. I don't do either of those. Yeah. And I think the royal jewels now are quite heavy.
Yes. And so for state occasions, things like that, they're great, but I think not for, perhaps for everyday life.
James: So the fact, so now in this sort of age of social media. That must be, you know, when the Princess Diana was wearing them, it wasn't as wide, there's no social media. No. But now there is that, that must support you.
I mean, that must be helpful to you.
Kiki: No, I certainly think, um, when the, the internet. You [00:23:00] know, started and there was Twitter and Facebook and all these social media. I don't think Instagram, it started then when, but somebody tweeted, which I didn't really know about Twitter. We only, I think we were only just about to go on it.
Someone tweeted that I. She, they'd seen the Princess of Wales wearing the jewelry. And, and so somebody rang me and said, oh, there's a tweet going round that the Prince of Wales are wearing her jewelry. And, and this is Catherine. And so I, of course, I just said, oh, how lovely. I hope they look nice or something.
And I didn't really think about it. And then we started getting orders from all over the world and it was extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary, completely. Took my breath away. I had no idea that this was gonna happen. I'm not very techie as you could probably. So you were surprised by, I'm not very tech, having the
James: phone ringing off the hook, I suppose they were all coming in online.
Yeah. And I'm not very techy, I'm afraid.
Kiki: So to me this was a, a complete mystery. But luckily I had some. Girls working for me who did understand what was going [00:24:00]
James: so, so that's a, so that's a new, A new phenomenon. New, yes. I mean, I think it's helped businesses
Kiki: hugely. The seems to, yeah. And Instagram particularly, I think is, which is there's always a favorite at the moment.
And I think Instagram is probably the favorite at the moment.
James: So thinking about. Your career and 40 years in business. I'm, I'm interested, one of the things I'm interested if, if a young person is thinking, well, maybe I'll get into jewelry. Mm-hmm. Um, what, what advice would you give 'em? How would you start a business in this space now if you were setting out as a young entrepreneur?
Kiki: I think the most important thing is to stay, say, don't start big, you know? Right. You've say you've borrowed. 5,000 pounds from the bank or 10,000 I whatever. You then don't think, right? Great. I've now got that money and I'm gonna do this, this, this, this, and this. No, stop. My advice would be stop right there and think seriously about who's going to buy your product, how they're going to buy it, what market are you aiming for, [00:25:00] and um, do not charge into a website and then find that no one's buying from it because no one knows anything about you.
So I would. Always say to someone, if you're going to make, spend that first init a small sum of money on making samples of your product. Test it on your girlfriends, test it at a, have a, have a party, you know, with 50 people and say, can you tell me exactly what you think? These are the prices. It's a little bit of market research before you spend too much money, because before you know it, things are so expensive.
Now it's gone. The money's gone. Right, and you've got nothing to change. Well, just buying the
James: raw materials is so expensive.
Kiki: Well, the money's gone because you've set up a website, you've done this, you've done that and everything, and you're ready to go, and you don't actually know who's going to buy your product.
I think it's so important that to think,
James: because you, you do a little bit of mentoring, don't you? I young, the mentoring entrepreneurs for the.
Kiki: For the Prince's trust, uh, which is now the king's trust. And so, yeah, I'm mentoring a girl at the moment who has [00:26:00] actually got a jewelry business and uh, she, it's been very interesting 'cause I'm a great one for looking forward, not back.
I never look, I never really look back and I have had to look back with her and see, you know, what? Um, so the advice I give her can be based on, you know, what I've done. And it, yeah, it's been very interesting. She was, oh, you
James: mean you've had to look back because you, you,
Kiki: I've had to look back at my own business.
Your own, your own market career. Own, uh, look back at my own career and see, you know, how and where, you know, things gone. She wanted to go straight into wholesale. I went, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going to go straight.
James: Why'd you go, why'd you go? No, no, no, no. Well, because
Kiki: it just means wholesale is a. It's quite a big deal.
You know, you are dealing with big comp, you know, normally big companies and internet sites and everything, and it's, it's a different ballgame and I'm, so, I said, let's start by doing it small. And she's doing really well. She's incredibly enthusiastic. She works incredibly hard. She does have talent and [00:27:00] luck and she's upbeat.
And you do need those things because you know, there are times when you think, oh. You know, goodness, really, and you've got to have that sense of humor and that upbeat character to go, ah, nevermind. Just let's have a laugh and go on. You know, you, you really do. I think a sense of humor is probably the most important thing.
James: So, Kiki, if, if, if you are starting out in, as a, a new business, a new new jewelry business, a young person building a business, and they want to move up into the sort of higher price points and build a brand. That is maybe a premium brand. Um, how, how, how would you advise them setting about doing that?
Kiki: So start small, start with a collection, which you can call it.
You can call it a name or whatever, some name or other. And then you have to make sort, you make 10 pieces and. You test drive it, you ask your friends around or whatever, and you don't price [00:28:00] it to such an extent that you know that none of the people you are going to ask is going to possibly afford it.
Once you've built a little bit of trust in your brand and people start liking what they're seeing and begin to buy it, then you can do a few more things that are a little bit more expensive. But I think if you think you're gonna do that in the space of a year and a half. Then you need to step back and just, you know, just go a little bit slower because I think it, I think.
You have to have that trust in your brand.
James: So when you say a collection, so you have a brand,
Kiki: your
James: brand's, Kiki McDonald, then you, you'd have a collection maybe each year you'd do a collection or you, so you say 10 pieces. What would, what typically would, yeah, so
Kiki: if you're starting out, I would, well typically would it,
James: it consists of,
Kiki: well it depends what sort of jewelry design you want, what sort of jewelry you like selling.
But I think you should start with sort of 10 pieces that you think, uh, people who. Your friend, you know, your friends can afford or you, you maybe ask your friends with their parents and they might buy them for their [00:29:00] birthday or something like that. I think you shouldn't rush in and immediately design things.
10 things that cost 10,000 pounds. I mean, I do four collections a year, or five, four collections a year, five. But I'm, you know, I've been going for 40 years, so I know that the market is there for my brand, and I think you shouldn't, you should just start off. Being careful.
James: So you start off carefully in small, but you, you use the word trust.
It sounds to me that that's really important. I think
Kiki: it's really important that people trust what you're doing and they will do that slowly, you, you know, there is that expression. How do you build trust and build trust? You don't instantly get someone's trust. You have to build it and you know you have to work, work on it.
And that
James: takes years in a business like yours.
Kiki: Well, I think it can take, it certainly can take two or three years, I think, to build people like what you do and then they buy one thing and then they might buy something from the next collection and then they are [00:30:00] beginning to be on your side and understand what you're doing.
You've also got to have a message. You can't just say, these are my 10 pieces. I've done these 10 pieces because, and I think that's really important. So what would be an example
James: of the
Kiki: big cause? Because, well, in my case it was, I wanted to design fine jewelry for women to buy for themselves. You know, 40 years ago they were earning more, they were beginning to earn more.
Yes. And you know, they had fake jewelry but, and wanted to buy real jewelry, but obviously couldn't afford the sort of serious bond street prices. So I think you have to. I ha I have to, I'd like to think I'd say two to two to that. I mean, we still still sell things from a thousand pounds to, well upwards of that, um, is a lot.
I mean, the detachable earrings I was talking about earlier.
James: No, we've talked to people on the podcast before about purpose. I mean, that's your because isn't it, between Mr. Cars is the same in a sense? Yeah. I think you
Kiki: have to be able to tell people. Why you are doing this? You [00:31:00] know, you can't say, oh, I thought I'd do 10 pieces of jewelry, and here they are.
And people go, oh, really? Okay. Um, and there's, and then instead you're going to say to them, I decided to design some jewelry. I really want this jewelry to be based around what my friends wear or whatever, and mm-hmm. Um, you build a story around it.
James: So you said, Kiki, that you know, it's important for.
Designers to think about the because and yeah. Why they're doing something and what the collection's about.
Kiki: Mm-hmm.
James: You know, I understand that, you know, ballet is quite an important part of your sort of Yes. Creative sort of source material. Tell, tell me more. It's, it is
Kiki: really a, um, a source of my material.
I love the ballet. I get inspired by it. I've been going since I was four years old, and I, it, it. You know, when I was a secretary in earning, not very much. I'd put a bit aside every week to go buy a ticket to go to the ballet, and I'm passionate about it. And Lauren Cusson, who is one of the principal dancers of the Royal Ballet, is the face of Ki Kiki McDonough in for this 40th anniversary, which [00:32:00] I'm thrilled about.
She's, she's lovely, the most beautiful ballet dancer. But the years ago I went to see Sleeping Beauty. It was just when I'd opened my first store actually, and. There was a spring fairy in Sleeping Beauty that was wearing a tutu with pale blue and green satin on top. And I remember looking at it and thinking, that's such a beautiful color combination.
And so I got back to the store and I said, girls, we're going to make jewelry, which is multicolored, and we're going to do Perone blue topaz. We are gonna do garnet in citrine. 'cause that was the autumn. Very and, and I can't remember what the other two were. But anyway, so the those and they all went, oh gosh, that's quite, are you sure Kiki?
It was a lot of, are you sure? And I said, we're definitely gonna do it. And we did it. And that was almost one of the starting points of multicolored gemstone jewelry in the UK at that time. So that was
James: inspired by, that
Kiki: was inspired by tutu in sleeping Beauty. And it is those earrings I did. [00:33:00] In 19 90, 19 89 something, and they're still one of our best selling earrings all these years later.
James: Fantastic. So, so it's good to, you know, seek inspiration in all sorts of places. Yes. Isn't, that's what I'm hearing here. You know, you go to the ballet and you get an idea, take back to your business.
Kiki: I can see a shape as well. I, I look around and I see a pretty shape and I think, oh, that's pretty, I mean, I've actually.
You know, you can see a road sign and you can think that's such a pretty shape. I like the curves around whatever, you know, and you, you go back and you think about that and you incorporate it. And
James: so you are always working, aren't you?
Kiki: I'm always, yes. Honestly. You see a
James: road sign, you go to the ballet. The ballet, you're getting ideas.
Yeah. There's a lot of crossover here.
Kiki: I think you do. I think one, somebody once said to me that the business is in my DNA. I suppose I, and of course I said, no, it's not, of course it's not in my DNA, but actually I think it probably is.
James: What about building a brand? I mean, if you're building, I mean your brand, Kiki McDon.
Kiki: Yeah. I
James: mean, she's starting a new [00:34:00] business. How do you, how do you get a brand established? Well, I,
Kiki: I established my brand over a long period, remember? I mean, I've done, sure. I've taken 40 years to do it. I had children quite late, so I wanted to spend a bit of time with them when they were younger, certainly in their first or eight years.
So people would say to me, you know, how many shops have you got? And I say, one shop, two children. Mm-hmm. And I was quite careful in those sort of eight years to, um. Do 50 50. So the business didn't really progress a huge amount in those eight years. I mean, it's, you know, continued on an upbeat note, but it, but, uh, it's probably slowed down a little bit.
But then when they went off to school and things, I, um, I laid the charge and then the internet of course helped. And then I was able to spend more time thinking about, you know, where we go next and what we do and what we sell and who to, and. And all those questions, but I mean
James: a jewelry brand's normally the name of the jeweler is that
Kiki: I
James: know.
Is that, I mean, is that [00:35:00] the way to go with this? Well, if you were to, you were gonna start one, one. I don't think it
Kiki: necessarily has to be your name. I think it's sometimes helpful not for it not to be your name. Right. And it depends what, what you're selling, obviously. But I mean, it just so happened back in 1985, it was called Kiki McDonough and it, you know, that's where it stayed.
Yeah. But I'm really happy that my. Brand now is a proper, you know, international brand. Because if I disappeared off tomorrow, which I'm not doing, if, if I do it, it, it has got longevity and it's a, yeah, it's got legs.
James: Yeah, no, well, I mean that's clearly, that's a, a big investment over time.
Kiki: It is, uh, it, but it's been, it's been a hell of a ride.
I can't tell you I wouldn't have, I literally would not change anything if someone said, okay, you can have your career all over again. I'd say, please can have it exactly the same. I don't regret any of it. Um, and of course there've been that's really good deal. But
James: when you said there have been hard moments and, well,
Kiki: two recessions.
I've done a pandemic, and at the moment we have stagnation and then we've, and now we've got [00:36:00] Trump's, uh, you know. Is that gonna affect you?
James: The trade tart?
Kiki: Not, not, I mean, who knows? Stagnation is
James: what you call it at the moment. Yeah. Feels like that. I'm not with, I mean, I think it was
Kiki: stagnation before Trump actually.
I, I think it's very hard. I think what is hard for the entrepreneurs at the moment, who's only set up their business a year ago, the doom and gloom that was spread before the election and after the election. I mean, it, it was. Really damaging, I think. I think a lot of people did go into a doom and gloom, and entrepreneurs don't need doom and gloom.
They need upbeat, they need positive messages, they need the treasury to be on their side, and I think it, it was really unkind to spread that doom and gloom. I, uh, and it's very difficult to spread joy after. You've done that. Um, and I think it's, again, yeah,
James: it's hard to go back again. It is very kind to do
Kiki: that because I think that, you know, a lot of people have suffered from that.
James: Yeah. So we need, we need more joy in the business environment. Yes, we
Kiki: need some more upbeat, we need, you know, [00:37:00] we are there for you. We know what you are going through. We know what entrepreneurs, the, you know, there are thousands and millions of entrepreneurs in this country, and we need the government behind us.
We need them to say, we know what you're trying to do. We know what you're, you know, you want to sell your product, you want to employ people, you want to move on, you want to do that. And there is nothing. Coming from them. And um, in some ways
James: that's how you see it. 'cause they say they're pro-growth and they wanna grow the economy and,
Kiki: well, I think probably not, not itself.
The pro growth thing was interesting. How, how did that work out? I'm not quite sure. Well, it's not happening at
James: the moment. No at the moment.
Kiki: But, you know, it's, you know, entrepreneurs need positive attitudes.
James: Yes. But you've managed to stay positive, it seems.
Kiki: Well, I think I've just got a very, a good sense of humor actually.
I think that's the thing that me to, but I mean, I mean,
James: as you said, over a 40 year period, you're gonna go through periods that have
Kiki: Yeah.
James: Some periods are gonna be better than others.
Kiki: Yes. And I think the
James: first, it's important to keep that perspective, isn't it? Even if it's a tough period.
Kiki: Yes. And you'll, you will come out of it.[00:38:00]
And actually, if you can start a business in a recession. You make it through the recession, then you are on the road. Exactly. It's good time
James: in many ways. In some ways it's a
Kiki: good time to start a business 'cause you can do all sorts of things and you know, you can tread lightly to begin with. But keep it small.
Keep it tight, keep it small. Keep it tight, you know, look at the money. Watch the finances. Yeah. Watch the finances every time.
James: That would be your advice. Mm-hmm. I'm interested with your design vision. So you, you, you said you don't follow fashion.
Kiki: I don't follow fashion. No, but,
James: but you have a, a sort of vision of your, how do you stay true to your vision while at the same time being sort of sensitive to customer desires?
Kiki: Mm-hmm. '
James: cause I suppose fashion might drive your customers to ask for certain things.
Kiki: Yes. And actually I get, I feed a lot of my customers and they might say, oh, you know, could you do more jewelry for evening? Or Could you do more jewelry for this? And more jewelry? So. Yes, feedback from your clients is really important, but I think as far as my vision goes is I, well, every year I [00:39:00] think I'm never gonna be able to think of another collection ever again, and then out it comes, you know, back it comes.
And I think my vision is just to keep designing pretty jewelry with beautiful stones and making women happier because they've bought something with their money that they're going to treasure.
James: So that's what you, that's what some business people call your North Star, I suppose. Yes. You're sort of always going from that.
Yes. That, that honestly is
Kiki: my North star. That is, it's a good word. Actually, north it's, well, I quite
James: like it. It's good to have a sort of clear, sort of, yeah. It is purpose in that sense, but I,
Kiki: I think it's important to also, to stay true to yourself. I mean, I think somebody. Mentioned to me a while ago, oh, you should, you know, you should be doing shoes and things like that.
And I'm going, oh, not really.
James: Well, some people branch out like that, don't, they Don't bring the branch out, but you're not gonna, but I,
Kiki: no, because I, there's so much more jewelry I want to design and want to people wear, and so I think I, I'll probably stick to jewelry, I think.
James: For
Kiki: the moment [00:40:00]
James: and this sort of thing about being pulled in different directions.
By fashion, I mean your customers are, I mean, we're all in the same world seeing the same things.
Kiki: Yes. And wanting
James: things because,
Kiki: but also it's interesting, the, the first pair of earrings I did was the crystal, the crystal bow, um, the crystal hearts with the bows. And we've just made them again, actually 40 years later.
'cause I'm doing a big archive exhibition at the Starchy Gallery on the 4th of June. And. They arrived from manufacturers, these earrings, and it's we're 40 years later, and the girls who worked for me in their twenties picked them all, picked them up and went, oh my goodness, they're so pretty. And I'm thinking, that's so funny.
It's, it's all just come round again. It all just goes round and round. Oh, you think
James: they're back in fashion, so to speak?
Kiki: I'm not sure if they're back in fashion, but other people just like them because they're just, yeah, they're, this is what I plea, this is what I love about my jewelry, because some people.
Some women's daughters are aware, you know, they've borrowed their par mother's earrings, and so it tells me that there, there is [00:41:00] a, a market going down for, because it's not high fashion.
James: So tell me more about this exhibition at the SAR gallery. It sounds fabulous. So, yeah,
Kiki: so somebody said about a year and a half ago.
I think we should, I think you should have a book about your 40 years in business and doing this. I went, no. Gosh, no, no, no, no. We don't need a book. Oh, yes, no, we really need a book, Kiki. And so it took a bit of persuading and so there is a book, it's Kiki McDonough, A Life in Color that comes out at the beginning of June and is going to be launched on the fourth.
On the 4th of June.
James: And is there gonna be a, a jewelry display as well? Isn't the cabinet? Yes. Oh, yes. And is that gonna be there for a little bit if people wanna go?
Kiki: No, just on, just on the, so you
James: have to, so we'll make sure this is made available to people before the 4th of June before, so you can go to, but actually
Kiki: after the 4th of June, it's then gonna come to the store.
It's only there every day, and it's going to come to the store and it's going to be there for. Alright, so 12 Simon Street. It's going to get be there, so it come time and the book will be there as well.
James: Fantastic. Kiki [00:42:00] McDon a Life in Color.
Kiki: Exactly. That's your book? Yes. And there's lots
James: of pictures of your jewelry over there.
Kiki: Lots of pictures of the jewelry, obviously a little bit of explanation about me and what I, my way of thinking and, and then lots. And there's a glossary in the middle about all the stones I've used and a bit about all the stone. And then the, yeah. All the, a bit for all the collections. Yes. Uh, over time.
And my tiara, I de, I designed a tiara, but during the pandemic, 'cause I thought, I don't know if anybody, but we use it, it's borrowed by brides when they. Right when they get married and it's, I've always wanted to design a tiara, and during the pandemic I thought, do you know what, if no one ever looks at it, I'm going to still design a tiara.
So I did. So this
James: is available for For weddings? For weddings, yeah. For brides. Nice. Yeah. It was in the,
Kiki: actually it was in the, it was the only two. Modern tiaras. That was in the Sotheby's Tiara's exhibit TI exhibition a year or so ago. Right. Yeah. I was very, very proud. One of two modern ones. Yeah, modern ones.
I was very proud of that actually.
James: Fantastic. [00:43:00] Fantastic.
Kiki: Mm-hmm. So
James: this, this anniversary, it's a big deal.
Kiki: Yeah, it is a big deal. I think. I mean,
James: well,
Kiki: I mean, I'm a great, as I say, you say you like to look forward 40 years. Gee, yeah. No, no, no, no. Let's go on, let's go on. No, no. And they go, no, no. Stop. Kiki, stop for a second.
40, 40 years is. Is a is a lot. Yeah. It, it's a lot of years. It's maybe something to celebrate, something to celebrate and something to, again, the book has made me look back over my career and um, it was so nice in a way looking through this book as it was being produced and thinking, oh golly, yeah, I remember that.
And all the books. All the PR books that I've ever had, which I've kept all the press cuttings obviously, because it's reference popping. So I was going back through those and I go, oh my goodness, look at that and look at that.
James: So it's got a lot of interesting, basically
Kiki: hairstyles actually. Yeah, that's quite, because they have changed, there'll be lots of interesting
James: things to look at.
So you talk about the stones, the gems. Yeah. Where, where do you source 'em from and how do you go about doing that?
Kiki: Well, IUI used to [00:44:00] travel everywhere to get the stones. And you go in
James: person?
Kiki: Yes. But now when you say
James: everywhere, where do you mean?
Kiki: Well, I've been. But mostly to the fairs, the jewelry fairs, because all the stone dealers from everywhere go to the fairs.
I used to go to the Basel Jewelry Fair every year, but that stopped. But to be honest, when the Basel jewelry fairs stopped, I'd been in business long enough that I actually know the four stone cutters and stone dealers that I like, and I have stuck with them really. For 30 years now, I've used the same people 'cause I trust them.
James: Are they in the UK or outside of uk? They're
Kiki: outside the UK and I trust them and I know them. And they, yeah,
James: so,
Kiki: and they now say to me, they know so much what I like, they will write and say, I've got, send me a picture of, say I've got the, this green dorm liens and I've got this and I, and what do you think?
And I'd go back and say, yes, send them over. May send them over. So where are they, if I
James: might ask which countries they're, they're
Kiki: in Europe.
James: Right. Yeah. They're in Europe. So is that, so this is a global, I mean, obviously the sourcing of the gems is a global
Kiki: Yes, absolutely. So they get the [00:45:00] rough and cut them and then, and, but then they also, I mean there has been some
James: controversy about diamonds being mined in place.
So how, how do you manage to, well, I don't really
Kiki: sell. Monds like yeah, big solitaire and big DMA necklaces. 'cause my thing is color, right? So it doesn't really so much apply to us. I think it, for those people in the Mond industry, I think it's very difficult. The lab grown almonds are extraordinary. They really are.
That's what I've heard. Yeah. Absolutely. Extraordinary. But then is it making diamonds? More accessible. I mean, if they're sold as lab grown terms, I think it's fine because it's making them more accessible. There's a difficulty
James: telling which is which then
Kiki: yeah, luckily I don't have that problem. I That's not a problem for you because you're not doing that.
Have to do that. Yeah. But
James: you have some diamonds, don't you use some diamonds? Yeah, I sprinkle them. Yeah. I,
Kiki: I still sprinkle, I mean, the ring I'm wearing the moment, which is far open and perigo, and it's got 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 little almonds in it. Right. Um, so, but that's not, they're small. They just add a little bit of, well, sparkle, I suppose.
A bit of [00:46:00] light.
James: Yes. So you say you look forward. Mm. What's next for next Keegan McDonough? Yeah. What's
Kiki: next? So, well, I think actually for the first time in my life I'm thinking to myself, let's just get through this year. And so. So this year and then, um, we do sell a lot. Our second biggest market is America, so obviously that's going to be next.
Mm-hmm. And we have had jewelry in America and then for various reasons, we took it, we took it out. Now it's, so now we're gonna work. So when you
James: say your second biggest market, do you have concessions in stores? There? No. Second. Biggest market on you do it online. Online, yeah. So people are ordering online?
Yeah.
Kiki: So that's, so I think, uh, the US is next exciting actually.
James: Yeah. Well it's a huge market. It's a huge market. So how are you gonna, so very competitive. This is an interesting, you know, business challenge for a lot of people who want to, from the UK want to sort of set up. And how are you thinking about doing that?
Kiki: Well, I think, um, I, I, again, I'm going to start small. I'd like to get it into a few independent shops, first stores first. Which parts parts of the
James: US would you go to? [00:47:00]
Kiki: Well. It's so difficult, isn't it? Because you see online, if you look at, if you look at the various places in America that we get our on online sales from, I mean, it's everywhere.
I. I mean, I mean we've had orders from Idaho to Seattle, to, to San Francisco, to New York, to Charleston. You know, I mean, it, it is very hard to pinpoint some, but I probably would like to. So you're gonna do, get
James: AI to sort of interrogate the data and tell you which places are likely, have more customer do it yourselves.
So how are you gonna do that? I think
Kiki: probably we would start somewhere. In, in or around or just outside New York? I think probably to begin with and that, that would be my first port of call, I think. And then That's
James: interesting you say, or around New York, would you go to something? Yeah, or like
Kiki: Greenwich, maybe Greenwich, Connecticut or somewhere like that.
That's where I'd really like to be because I think that would suit the market. And then we see where we go from there. Um, again, so you'd
James: start with a [00:48:00] physical shop or a concession, not my
Kiki: shop, but what I'd like to do is work from a shop, put the jewelry into a couple of independents, say in and around New York or whatever, and then test the market to see what they like.
Because we do quite a lot of collections, so we need to test and see does the market see what people are liking.
James: You'd have to have a sort of clone of yourself there talking to the customers, wouldn't you? How are you gonna do that? Well, I think Or someone who knows about the thing about what you are about.
How do you create that? The give
Kiki: them the book.
James: That's good that you've got the book. Yeah, give them the book. You've got the book, so, but you need to train the people to set. Yeah. There's all that involved. Do you
Kiki: have to go out? Someone would have to out create culture, train, train, train the people and the brand and things.
And I think it would also, independents are very good at their client base. You know, they, they would look at the pieces they, that I gave them or they decided to take, and they would have those clients in mind. I mean, if they had a client list of a thousand people, they might say, well, at least 300 [00:49:00] people might like that.
So it, it, it's a lot of work and research. But
James: would you do a launch event?
Kiki: I haven't got there yet. Can I get through this year first to see we get through 40 years?
James: No, but it seems to me, I'm just listening to you, that you're in a way replicating what you did here
Kiki: exactly 40
James: years ago in a way there by starting in another Yes.
Store, having a few shelves, doing it sort of softly, softly, softly. I mean, soft launch you, I think going
Kiki: to America big. It can be a terrible mistake and you can lose a lot of money. So, yes. Uh, I I, and I don't intend after 40 years to do that.
James: No, no. Well, I wish you every success with that. Thank you. So I think I, that brings me to the end of what I wanted to ask you about your business, but I have two questions I always ask at the end, right, Kiki, and, and now I'm gonna ask some of you, the first one is, and it's a clue here in the post is, is what gets you up on a Monday morning.
Kiki: Well, it is always this. Thing of, you know, who's bought some, who's bought what over the weekend [00:50:00] and you know, what we might sell this week and what people are, yeah, what people are buying and the chance of walking down the street. I. And seeing someone wearing my jewelry, that's what gets me up on Monday.
James: I love the fact you use, get such pleasure from seeing people wearing your jewelry. I think that's so nice. Just
Kiki: love it. After 40 years, it still has not lost its shine for me. And I look and I, I did that.
James: Yeah. That's so positive. And then the last question is, um, where do you see yourself in five years time?
This is from my interview book.
Kiki: Where do I see myself in five years time, still involved in the brand? Without question, and depending on how it grows is, I suspect it'll need, I've got a managing director who's fantastic in Sean Daily. She, she's great, and so. Yeah, probably, maybe a few more stuff. I, I don't it, it's very difficult question to ask someone when you are in the sort of economic turmoil that we're in at the moment, because you just don't know.
In the [00:51:00] previous recessions, you knew pretty much I. When it was gonna end and where it was going, and you knew that a year and a half would be about right, but this time I have no idea. It's very difficult. So I am pretending we're in a recession, so being, um, I ultra careful. So yeah. But in five years time, I'll definitely be here.
James: And, and hopefully in America as well we're set up there. That would be good. Hopefully
Kiki: on a beach, actually. Well, you know,
James: west coast, somewhere, west coast. Very good. Well, thank you for coming and talk to me. Well, thank you for having me here, Kiki. It's been a real pleasure. Very interesting. Thank you. To learn so much about your business.
Thanks so much. Thank
Kiki: you very much.
James: Thank you, Kiki, for joining me on all about business. I'm your host, James Reed, chairman and CEO of Reed, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Reed and Kiki McDonough, all links are in the show notes. See you next time.[00:52:00]
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